Theodore Duncan
 Portland Trail Blazers
Posts: 1,636 
Likes: 1,414
Total Bank: 57,500
|
Post by Theodore Duncan on Apr 10, 2017 15:40:05 GMT -5
76ers tradesSG 79 James Harden $16,744,218 $17,769,374 Portland tradesPOR 2017 1st POR 2019 1st BOS 2020 1st (top 3 protected) PG 54 Kris Dunn $3,952,500 $4,130,400 $4,308,300 $5,445,691 $7,144,747FC 55 Alan Williams $1,200,000 $1,200,000 $1,200,000MIA 2017 2nd MIA 2018 2nd POR 2017 2nd I think this will be probably a controversial trade, so I hope there will be good discussion if there are different opinions, and not just some lame reject one liners. I really think this will help both teams in the long run. Philly would be stuck in mediocrity with this current roster into foreseeable future. With my pick and their own, they will have 2 picks in top 6 in one of the strongest draft classes in a long time. That's pretty good odds to land a top 3 pick and even without getting extra lucky in the lottery they will still get two great players to build around. I really love the top talent in this years draft, so it hurts to send out my 1st round pick. But since Devin Booker and Porzingis have taken big steps ahead this year, it would make sense to try to get an established player and go for a playoff run already next year instead of waiting this years top rookies to develop into a third star. Harden is for some reason not as effective in the sim as he is in real life, but he is of course still a top talent in the only position my team is still lacking. I still like Kris Dunn very much, he was obviously not the rookie star PG I was hoping. But he has shown already that he could become very quickly one of the top perimeter defenders in the league. Development in offensive game remains still to be seen. Alan Williams has also proven that he is pretty much better than Alex Len already and really could be the starting center next year in Phoenix. Philly also gets my 2019 1st rounder, and the 2020 Boston pick, which might be sneakily good since they also have multiple veterans (Wade, Millsap and Big Al) as important core players, so a mini rebuild in few years is not too far fetched idea when those guys regress. Also all the 2nd rounders will be pretty early in the round, so decent talent can be still found with all of those. Philly has tried to make some rejected trades now with a bit uneven value, but I think the idea behind of them needing to start a rebuild is absolutely correct one. Value for the trades just has not been there, but I think this has been also a good learning curve for a new GM like Julius. I don't think those trades should be hold against him. From my point of view this trade could be processed in the end of the season, so getting Harden wouldn't make my pick too good. But in the other hand Philly is next in standings so I don't know how much would it change the situation in the end. Sorry.. this turned out to be a novel :) Julius Erving Edit. Forgot to mention. Both teams are under the cap before and after.
|
|
billy
 Miami Heat
Posts: 7,174
Likes: 6,145
Total Bank: 3,050
|
Post by billy on Apr 10, 2017 15:49:58 GMT -5
|
|
Steve Jobs
 Oklahoma City Thunder
Posts: 2,918
Likes: 2,107
Total Bank: 50,500
|
Post by Steve Jobs on Apr 10, 2017 16:21:56 GMT -5
Philly has a top ten pick WITH Harden, why would Julius need to trade Harden to rebuild. He's only 27?
I stand firm that a superstar should net a near-guaranteed future superstar or a high potential young player plus a really good pick. If he's going to trade Harden, I think he can get more than this.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Stockton on Apr 10, 2017 18:08:30 GMT -5
Not only a superstar, but an MVP candidate at his highest stock...BC called it, this is like Doc all over again.
|
|
Theodore Duncan
Portland Trail Blazers
Posts: 1,636
Likes: 1,414
Total Bank: 57,500
|
Post by Theodore Duncan on Apr 10, 2017 19:36:25 GMT -5
As far as I know it's within the trading etiquette to let both parties make their cases before other GM's start giving out their comments.. Thanks!
|
|
|
|
Post by Julius Erving on Apr 10, 2017 21:11:51 GMT -5
I really like Kris Dunn and i dont think that I can tank with an MVP on my roster so I'm basically trading him on a 2 year deal for a top 5 pick, Dunn, Alan Williams and plenty of other picks that will help me towards my young tanking team next season.I accept.
|
|
Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
Posts: 2,918
Likes: 2,107
Total Bank: 50,500
|
Post by Steve Jobs on Apr 10, 2017 21:22:50 GMT -5
I think this is definitively not enough for Harden, and even if I didn't I think that PHI needs to spend some more time shopping Harden at the very least... He's not expiring, he's just hitting his prime, he's got bird rights, his game will age extremely well thanks to his uncanny ability to draw fouls... an MVP candidate and perennial top 5 player shouldn't be traded for question marks, especially not when Portland has much more valuable assets to offer. Reject.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Stockton on Apr 10, 2017 22:31:39 GMT -5
As far as I know it's within the trading etiquette to let both parties make their cases before other GM's start giving out their comments.. Thanks! u rite my bad. |
|
Theodore Duncan
Portland Trail Blazers
Posts: 1,636
Likes: 1,414
Total Bank: 57,500
|
Post by Theodore Duncan on Apr 11, 2017 9:01:05 GMT -5
Philly has a top ten pick WITH Harden, why would Julius need to trade Harden to rebuild. He's only 27? I stand firm that a superstar should net a near-guaranteed future superstar or a high potential young player plus a really good pick. If he's going to trade Harden, I think he can get more than this. Just to comment on this. Of course Philly doesn't need to trade Harden to rebuild. They can do it with him, but also equally successfully without him. It is just a different route. With Harden they probably will be stuck to the lower end of the lottery since he is too good, which won't really give chance to get another top talent from really top of the draft. Just as comparison. You did not need to trade Wall and Middleton and start rebuilding OKC. You already had one of the top teams and easily could have easily kept successfully contending. You didn't need to do it, but you did it anyway. Which is fine because that is your decision to make and no one else... but then the question is why is one GM allowed to run their team as they want, and another GM isn't??? And I think it's pretty widely considered that there are multiple rookies in this year top 5 who have superstar potential. And I think it's sort of hypocrite to say this is not enough value, if you compare this against your John Wall trade. I think the value is about the same Harden = Wall + 2nd rounders (Wall is actually imo more valuable in the sim since he has the very rare Dp skill. He has also better PER, EWI, AST and STLs in the sim than Harden, but the 2nd rounders equal the value regardless if that is true) Simmons = top 5 pick 2017 + another first rounder, Kris Dunn Tyler Johnson, Check Diallo = 1st round pick, Alan Williams, early 2nd round pick McCallum, Baynes = two 2nd round picks (not really even worth one pick imo lol) Could Philly have gotten more.. maybe. Probably slightly more from Steve since he seems to be annoyed not knowing that Harden was available. But to say that this is not more than enough value, is just not correct. But ok.. Steve and John have given their verdict. I'm interested to hear what others have to say. |
|
White Mamba
 Milwaukee Bucks
Posts: 403
Likes: 338
Total Bank: 0
|
Post by White Mamba on Apr 11, 2017 10:15:12 GMT -5
|
|
White Mamba
Milwaukee Bucks
Posts: 403
Likes: 338
Total Bank: 0
|
Post by White Mamba on Apr 11, 2017 10:28:55 GMT -5
I don't wanna vote on this trade since I'm so new to the league but this is an absolutely pathetic return for harden. He is worth 2 or 3 times what is traded here
|
|
Paul Pierce
 Chicago Bulls
Posts: 2,818
Likes: 1,143
Total Bank: 6,050
|
Post by Paul Pierce on Apr 11, 2017 12:30:38 GMT -5
Harden is a top 5 player in the league and his contract is sweet right now. Kris Dunn is good but not that great of a prospect. Hes already 22-23 and wont flourish while being the 4th option in MIN. Portlands pick is gonna get worse by adding Harden and they will probably be a playoff team by 2019 so I see no value there. Portlands gotta give up like Dbook or something if he wants Harden.
Reject
|
|
|
|
Post by Brown Cobb IV on Apr 11, 2017 15:41:54 GMT -5
reject
not nearly enough for james harden, I dont see Dunn or that portland pick this year having nearly the same value/ceiling/floor as Harden.
Side note: You dont need to blow it all up to rebuild, the point of rebuilding is to find that MVP type player which philly has, plus he has a sick pick this year anyways.
|
|
|
|
Post by DJ Jazzy Jeff on Apr 11, 2017 21:53:52 GMT -5
What goes on lol
|
|
Reggie Miller
 Indiana Pacers
Posts: 1,392
Likes: 627
Total Bank: 6,000
|
Post by Reggie Miller on Apr 11, 2017 22:48:48 GMT -5
Damn.. Harden is a top 2 player right now.. even with that picks it is not enough.. I understand the Davis trade cause of Favors but Harden for Kris Dunn? Don't get me wrong Dunn is a good player but still raw but Harden is a very high caliber player..
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2017 23:00:48 GMT -5
I reject this trade. I feel this is not enough to trade an easily top ten player in the league in James Harden for mainly draft picks. If they were getting a young player that would be a for sure superstar but Kris Dunn is very questionable to me to be great in the league.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Stockton on Apr 12, 2017 1:55:58 GMT -5
where do you guys think Kris Dunn would have been picked if last year's draft was done over? top 15?
|
|
|
|
Post by Yao Ming on Apr 12, 2017 13:43:27 GMT -5
Right now Harden's value in 720 is probably sky high due to that very team-friendly contract. He is a flight risk for Philly though, which may dent his value a little bit since he's a sixer.
There should be great value at the top of the 2017 draft, but Harden is still a MVP candidate. In my opinion, the draft picks involved in a trade for an MVP candidate need to be at least 3-4 Top 3 picks.
Most of Dunn's draft value last year came at the prospect of him being able to contribute right away. He's struggling immensely right now in his transition to the NBA, which may raise some questions about his ceiling since he's 23. He still has upside, but I don't think he holds much value in a trade for Harden.
Anyways I'm going to reject since despite Philly selling at the right time. An MVP candidate should fetch much much much more in return
|
|
Theodore Duncan
Portland Trail Blazers
Posts: 1,636
Likes: 1,414
Total Bank: 57,500
|
Post by Theodore Duncan on Apr 12, 2017 14:25:39 GMT -5
where do you guys think Kris Dunn would have been picked if last year's draft was done over? top 15? I would say late 1st would be about right and that's how I valued him also in the trade offer. |
|
Theodore Duncan
Portland Trail Blazers
Posts: 1,636
Likes: 1,414
Total Bank: 57,500
|
Post by Theodore Duncan on Apr 12, 2017 14:55:44 GMT -5
I don't think it really matters, but lol at people saying Harden for Dunn is not enough. Of course not. The top 5 pick was the main piece here, not Dunn.
Anyways thanks for voting. I don't still agree, but that's life.
It's sort of funny. I see constantly GM's who are also in D5 complaining that it's no fun anymore there because every trade gets rejected. Never been in D5 myself, but yeah.. I don't think D720 is that far off sometimes. I really think there is a big problem also here with some people (definitely not all) who are rejecting/accepting trades completely differently based on which GM's are involved. I would have couple of very good past trade examples in mind, but I have already wasted enough of time ranting and trying to make trades that both GM's like.
"Every GM is a Doc Rivers, until proven innocent" - TD
|
|
billy
Miami Heat
Posts: 7,174
Likes: 6,145
Total Bank: 3,050
|
Post by billy on Apr 12, 2017 14:57:42 GMT -5
I recently changed the TC for this reason, Theodore. And almost every trade has gone through since the change, only the extreme ones have been rejected.
Keep working out a deal, if you really draw the line here at what you're willing to give up to get Harden, you may be selling yourself short! I think it's valid you should probably be giving up one of your more valuable players to get a guy that is arguably the MVP in a year when someone is averaging a triple double.
I think the trade I linked for Anthony Davis shouldn't have gone through, I remember that being like the 3rd time it was posted and it went through, even though it was still fucking ridiculous. You could do the same thing here. Never give up!
|
|
billy
Miami Heat
Posts: 7,174
Likes: 6,145
Total Bank: 3,050
|
Post by billy on Apr 12, 2017 15:08:27 GMT -5
I really think there is a big problem also here with some people (definitely not all) who are rejecting/accepting trades completely differently based on which GM's are involved. I would have couple of very good past trade examples in mind, but I have already wasted enough of time ranting and trying to make trades that both GM's like. "Every GM is a Doc Rivers, until proven innocent" - TD I wanted to address this point directly, and feel free to respond and discuss and let me hear what you think. But I think it's fine to treat trades differently depending on the GM involved. The point is to not let a franchise get ruined by some noob that will disappear in a month, not every GM will stay after the ruin a franchise, giving some poor GM the Dallas Mavericks treatment. I tagged White Mamba in this thread for that very reason. Doesn't he wish so hard that the TC had done their job and kept AD from being traded for a big bag of dimes? The GM disappeared shortly after. This could happen with Harden so easily. In recent trades we've seen some questionable value trades being passed because the one getting "hosed" was an experienced GM. Steve Jobs has been here for years, and if he wants to trade his better players for a deal to take his team in another direction, I think the TC can step aside and let him do that. If he "ruins" his team he will ride it out and not leave it on another poor sod that has to join and get a bad end of the deal. This same vein is also why we enforce the Stepien rule the way we do. Theodore Duncan, but I do see how that could seem "unfair", but I think the logic is sound, and in the spirit of the point of voting on trades. But I'd love to hear the thoughts of people who think there is merit in only judging trades by the sum of their parts. |
|
Theodore Duncan
Portland Trail Blazers
Posts: 1,636
Likes: 1,414
Total Bank: 57,500
|
Post by Theodore Duncan on Apr 12, 2017 16:39:54 GMT -5
I do really get you point. But yeah.. I don't know man.
For me trading is about trying to find a player from another team that his GM is valuing less than I'm myself. And in return you try to trade away a player who the other GM maybe values more than you do. So when you try trade with a new GM or a bad team sometimes you just know beforehand that you would have to "overpay" if you want have any chance to get the trade through.
So often you don't really feel like even trying to make deals, if the underrated players I like are in teams that I can't get any value when trading for them. Not that I trade that much in general, but there have been couple of times where I have really have spend a lot of time to find a good deal that both sides like (with my side still winning) and then it's insta rejected because it's against a bad team and they should not make trade they lose. Don't remember details, this was probably in D420. But probably the same trade would have been easily accepted if it was between you and me. I can't really put my point to words properly, but maybe I'm also only one who this annoys.
BTW..I do really like how the changes in TC have made people to often write good write-ups why they like the trade. What I don't like is that in rejected trades (not in this one) there is often just "lol reject #doclives" comments instead of any constructive criticism.
|
|
Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
Posts: 2,918
Likes: 2,107
Total Bank: 50,500
|
Post by Steve Jobs on Apr 12, 2017 17:20:58 GMT -5
One thing you can be certain of... if you get zero accepts from a league-wide TC, your trade was unbalanced from virtually every perspective. If Billy had Harden and you posted this trade with him, I still feel quite confident that I wouldn't have been the only person to reject.
And again, there is a reason some trades are treated differently than other based on GM... Billy would never accept this trade. In fact, I feel quite confident if he approached you about trading for Harden, his bottom line asking price would be Booker+2017 1st or Porzingis+2017 1st. And that would be reasonable.
Last point... every vote that actually counts needs a valid, multi-sentence reasoning, so the "lol reject" types of comments shouldn't offend you because they don't matter anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by Julius Erving on Apr 12, 2017 20:22:56 GMT -5
I really think there is a big problem also here with some people (definitely not all) who are rejecting/accepting trades completely differently based on which GM's are involved. I would have couple of very good past trade examples in mind, but I have already wasted enough of time ranting and trying to make trades that both GM's like. "Every GM is a Doc Rivers, until proven innocent" - TD I wanted to address this point directly, and feel free to respond and discuss and let me hear what you think. But I think it's fine to treat trades differently depending on the GM involved. The point is to not let a franchise get ruined by some noob that will disappear in a month, not every GM will stay after the ruin a franchise, giving some poor GM the Dallas Mavericks treatment. I tagged White Mamba in this thread for that very reason. Doesn't he wish so hard that the TC had done their job and kept AD from being traded for a big bag of dimes? The GM disappeared shortly after. This could happen with Harden so easily. In recent trades we've seen some questionable value trades being passed because the one getting "hosed" was an experienced GM. Steve Jobs has been here for years, and if he wants to trade his better players for a deal to take his team in another direction, I think the TC can step aside and let him do that. If he "ruins" his team he will ride it out and not leave it on another poor sod that has to join and get a bad end of the deal. This same vein is also why we enforce the Stepien rule the way we do. Theodore Duncan , but I do see how that could seem "unfair", but I think the logic is sound, and in the spirit of the point of voting on trades. But I'd love to hear the thoughts of people who think there is merit in only judging trades by the sum of their parts. Question, does Doc Rivers have anything to with "doc reject"? Been wondering about that. |
|
Paul Pierce
Chicago Bulls
Posts: 2,818
Likes: 1,143
Total Bank: 6,050
|
Post by Paul Pierce on Apr 12, 2017 20:29:20 GMT -5
I wanted to address this point directly, and feel free to respond and discuss and let me hear what you think. But I think it's fine to treat trades differently depending on the GM involved. The point is to not let a franchise get ruined by some noob that will disappear in a month, not every GM will stay after the ruin a franchise, giving some poor GM the Dallas Mavericks treatment. I tagged White Mamba in this thread for that very reason. Doesn't he wish so hard that the TC had done their job and kept AD from being traded for a big bag of dimes? The GM disappeared shortly after. This could happen with Harden so easily. In recent trades we've seen some questionable value trades being passed because the one getting "hosed" was an experienced GM. Steve Jobs has been here for years, and if he wants to trade his better players for a deal to take his team in another direction, I think the TC can step aside and let him do that. If he "ruins" his team he will ride it out and not leave it on another poor sod that has to join and get a bad end of the deal. This same vein is also why we enforce the Stepien rule the way we do. Theodore Duncan , but I do see how that could seem "unfair", but I think the logic is sound, and in the spirit of the point of voting on trades. But I'd love to hear the thoughts of people who think there is merit in only judging trades by the sum of their parts. Question, does Doc Rivers have anything to with "doc reject"? Been wondering about that. Yeah haha. That dude was wild |
|
|
|
Post by Brown Cobb IV on Apr 12, 2017 21:11:49 GMT -5
this dude wilder
|
|
billy
Miami Heat
Posts: 7,174
Likes: 6,145
Total Bank: 3,050
|
Post by billy on Apr 12, 2017 21:29:38 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Brown Cobb IV on Apr 12, 2017 22:39:02 GMT -5
what a waste
|
|
billy
Miami Heat
Posts: 7,174
Likes: 6,145
Total Bank: 3,050
|
Post by billy on Apr 13, 2017 6:27:26 GMT -5
Also the complaints about the D5 TC might be put into a better light in comparison with this trade,
They rejected a deal that involved basically Ulis and 3 1st round picks for Lavine (after he tore his ACL).
I had to give up basically 5 1sts and Ulis to get an injured Lavine. That's about what you're trying to give up here for Harden.
We're much easier on the accepts :)
|
|
Utah Jazz
