ORL-PHX

[Justin Timberlake]

Suns send:

64 Evan Fournier $2,288,204 $3,278,997
65 Eric Gordon $8,000,000 $8,000,000 $7,500,000 $7,000,000 7,000,000
SAC 2016 2nd

Total salary sent: $10,288,204
Total salary received: $8,626,462
Team salary after trade: $75,145,996


Magic send:

65 Michael Kidd-Gilchrist $6,331,403 $8,262,481
45 Glenn Robinson IIII $700,000 $770,000
48 Nick Calathes $750,000 $750,000
BOS 2016 1st
Contract of Roy Devyn Marble $845,059 $980,431

Total salary sent: $8,626,462
Total salary received: $10,288,204
Team salary after trade: $71,689,490


I accept. I like MKG's skill set and think it will be a good fit for my team in the future. However, I'm concerned with his injuries. Also been looking to move Eric Gordon for a 1st since I got him. With Orlando's lack of 3PT shooting, Fournier or Gordon will be great fits in their lineup that needs to do well next season (because of the pick swap with ATL). Due to MKG's injury issues, both being RFA this offseason and Orlando's lack of 3PT shooting, imo Fournier > MKG. With Gordon's contract, age and effectiveness in the sim I think he is worth a solid 1st. If you think the BOS 1st is worth more than Gordon (likely will fall in the range of 9-12) I think the difference between Fournier and MKG along with the 2nd makes up for that. The other guys are there to make the salary work within the 125% rule.

Win win for both of us. I receive a young, versatile defender and a nice pick and he receives two sharp shooters (a role he desperately needs filled) for a competitive next season without sacrificing youth.

Allen Iverson

[Allen Iverson]

What he said. I accept!

[Justin Timberlake]

Brown Cobb IV
Steve Jobs
Pete Maravich
Colin Loftin
Brian Scalabrine

[Pete Maravich]

I believe Gordon is a negative asset on that contract but Fournier is the best player in the deal.  Kidd-Gilchrist is a wildcard & the Boston pick might end up being the best asset.  I think it should be top 3 protected but not enough to reject.

I accept

[billy]

Apr 24, 2016 13:16:13 GMT -5 Pete Maravich said:

the Boston pick might end up being the best asset.  I think it should be top 3 protected

Interesting. We currently don't have a way to protect picks that were acquired from someone else. If that is something that people would be interested in, we could draft up some guidelines for it. It would have to be different since there would either need to be a different form of conveyance, or people being okay with no conveyance on something like this.

[Brown Cobb IV]

Apr 24, 2016 13:58:41 GMT -5 billy said:

Apr 24, 2016 13:16:13 GMT -5 Pete Maravich said:

the Boston pick might end up being the best asset.  I think it should be top 3 protected

Interesting. We currently don't have a way to protect picks that were acquired from someone else. If that is something that people would be interested in, we could draft up some guidelines for it. It would have to be different since there would either need to be a different form of conveyance, or people being okay with no conveyance on something like this.

nah, lets stick to real nba where you cant protect picks that have been traded to you from someone else.

but i accept, i dont think eric gordon is a negative

[Pete Maravich]

Apr 24, 2016 14:45:17 GMT -5 Brown Cobb IV said:

Apr 24, 2016 13:58:41 GMT -5 billy said:

Interesting. We currently don't have a way to protect picks that were acquired from someone else. If that is something that people would be interested in, we could draft up some guidelines for it. It would have to be different since there would either need to be a different form of conveyance, or people being okay with no conveyance on something like this.

nah, lets stick to real nba where you cant protect picks that have been traded to you from someone else.

but i accept, i dont think eric gordon is a negative

I forgot it couldn't be protected since it was from another team.  I agree with Brown.  I vote to stay with what the NBA does in most cases to keep things realistic.

[Steve Jobs]

To me, this is basically Like

MKG for Gordon

Robinson/Calathes for SAC 2016 2nd

BOS 2016 1st for Fournier

- MKG for Gordon because they're comparably rated, comparably injury prone, and MKG is probably slightly more valuable to me except the fact he'll go through FA in the cap spike offseason means he'll command a high price tag, so the contract situation evens out their value.

- Robinson/Calathes for SAC 2016 2nd because both sides are marginally valuable.

-BOS 2016 1st for Fournier because they're the only assets left.

My only issue is that Boston's pick is top ten, and Fournier is not now, and may never be, worth a top ten pick. For all his improvements, his numbers really aren't that special coming from a wing on a team desperate for a perimeter threat. I admit, he could get better and make my opinion here invalid later on, but for now I'm just not a huge fan.

I'm gonna reject. This trade isn't in and of itself franchise ruining, but in context, Orlando has lost value in so many trades in the last month or two that breaking even or winning every trade (value-wise) will be incredibly important for them for the time being. I think AI's best course of action is keeping and using that Boston pick and finding players to fill out their depth in other future trades.

[Justin Timberlake]

I really don't think this is rejectable at all. Orlando needs to do better than Atlanta next season or they have to pick swap with them. An injury prone MKG and a top 10 IF YOU'RE LUCKY isn't going to be better than Gordon and Fournier. There are 3 or 4 teams all within a few games of each other that could easily make this fall out of the top 10 in a relatively shallow draft year. And the fact that Gordon is on a relatively cheap, decreasing contract and player option makes him more valuable than MKG if you choose to compare it that way. Like you said, MKG will likely cost a steap price this RFA. Lastly, Calathes and Robinson are not worth anything in this trade. Anyone can pick up 45 overall guys. That's what they are. They're purely there for salary reasons

[Justin Timberlake]

With the similar RFA contracts I think it's better compare it the way I had in my reasoning.

MKG < Fournier

Gordon + difference in above + Sac 2nd = Boston pick

I think the value is equal. Even if you disagree, the difference can't be rejectable.
Steve Jobs

[Justin Timberlake]

Colin Loftin
Brian Scalabrine

[Steve Jobs]

Apr 24, 2016 23:02:27 GMT -5 Justin Timberlake said:

With the similar RFA contracts I think it's better compare it the way I had in my reasoning.

MKG < Fournier

Gordon + difference in above + Sac 2nd = Boston pick

I think the value is equal. Even if you disagree, the difference can't be rejectable.
Steve Jobs

Let's not even pretend we're worried about Atlanta getting to use that pick swap. Barring them getting the 1st pick this year, that pick being a top 5 player immediately, and also getting some great free agents as well (should be impossible after a year of tanking this hard), ATL is bottom 5 again. For Orlando, barring trading all their decent players away for assets and trying to tank (would be pointless), they are bottom 10 at worst. The chances of that swap being viable are negligible, and if it is viable, they will be so close that difference in selection will be 1 or two picks and won't mean that much.

Boston's pick is among a group of teams in the bottom 11, and 12th place is about 6 games back with about 12 games left across the board. So in reality there is only one extra team vying for the tenth spot, and Boston isn't really in danger of falling out. No luck involved: Boston's pick is virtually guaranteed top ten. Say what you want about the talent available, but it's definitely worth a good amount if he ends up 7th or 8th. From there...

MKG >> Fournier (barely needs an argument... MKG's shot looked much improved and the difference in defense was already great enough to put him over for me).
Gordon + SAC 2nd < BOS 1st (Despite his good contract, Gordon is not really that good and extremely* injury prone... Not that valuable!)

Even ignoring the other guys, I think Orlando is losing this. I was very explicit when I said the value didn't have to be rejectable for me, because Orlando can't afford to lose another trade since they have lost so much value in the last few transactions. They need to be winning or breaking even for me to feel comfortable accepting a trade.

* EXTREMELY

[Justin Timberlake]

MKG played what, like 7 games this season? You're going to take that as a legitimate sample and factor that into the trade? Even if he was the best player in the league, not being able to play because of injuries would mean he isn't to me.

And you underestimate BC haha. I can't say much but he has some valuable assets and a ton of picks. Being bestfriends with him irl for the past 4 yrs I'm more than aware of the kind of trades this guy can pull off. He's made it known he won't be tanking next year. Granted, probably not fully competitive either by next year. But if Orlando has someone like MKG playing a prominent role on his team and he gets injured again (along with other factors), he could be looking at a similar situation to this year. I would bet ATL will do better next year than Orlando did this year.

Anyway, up to Brian and Colin

[Steve Jobs]

Apr 25, 2016 10:12:28 GMT -5 Justin Timberlake said:

MKG played what, like 7 games this season? You're going to take that as a legitimate sample and factor that into the trade? Even if he was the best player in the league, not being able to play because of injuries would mean he isn't to me.

And you underestimate BC haha. I can't say much but he has some valuable assets and a ton of picks. Being bestfriends with him irl for the past 4 yrs I'm more than aware of the kind of trades this guy can pull off. He's made it known he won't be tanking next year. Granted, probably not fully competitive either by next year. But if Orlando has someone like MKG playing a prominent role on his team and he gets injured again (along with other factors), he could be looking at a similar situation to this year. I would bet ATL will do better next year than Orlando did this year.

Anyway, up to Brian and Colin

I never said the 7 game sample size proved his percentages were sustainable, I just said his literal shot motion looked much improved, which can, and may, be sustainable. If he can be a reliable 3 point threat (even 36%) for a full season, he'll be one of the best 3-and-D players in the league. The injury issue is important, but Eric Gordon is more injury prone since he's proved over multiple seasons that he can't stay on the court consistently. If MKG comes back and averages 60 games for the next few seasons then of course his value is shot. Until then, and especially light of today's modern medicine, you assume the issue won't be an issue forever and base his value off of performance, of which his defense makes him valuable.

I'm not underestimating BC. He's made a ton of lop-sided trades already, and he'll probably continue to. But right now he has a line up full of back ups and young guys with upside, and time for those young guys to progress is the most important bit. Assets/picks can only be so valuable in trades, and any trade for legitimate all-stars will require he trade the promising young guys and picks... Meaning either a reliable starting line up and no bench, or a deep team without the top end talent to win consistently. Free agency shouldn't, and hopefully won't, do him any real favors, so trades are where the majority of his improvement comes from. If BC's being honest with himself, one or two more seasons of "tanking" while his young guys develop will give him a chance to reach a much greater peak than trading all his assets while his young guys are still too young to be those 65+ Solid Starters. And again, Orlando has all sorts of time to try to trade for that pick swap back next season if they really feel they're in danger of being worse than Atlanta. Trading in fear of that pick swap right now when the team is primed for a comeback season next year is just short-sighted.

[Brown Cobb IV]

evan fournier > top 10 pick this draft
MKG > eric gordon

both parties lose a bit of the trade but they also gain a bit. to me phx is getting the most risky assets, he gets an injury prone mkg + a top 10 draft pick. I think we value draft picks too high, they are great but as soon as you are out of the top 5 there is so much risk involved in them, espeically in this draft as i do not think there is a lot of strong talent. Although orlando receives a risky asset in gordon he alsor eceives fournier who he has proven himself as a capable defender and good shooter. Is he great? no....but he is more proven than mkg or the boston pick....

i accept

[Steve Jobs]

Apr 25, 2016 19:36:15 GMT -5 Brown Cobb IV said:

evan fournier > top 10 pick this draft
MKG > eric gordon

both parties lose a bit of the trade but they also gain a bit. to me phx is getting the most risky assets, he gets an injury prone mkg + a top 10 draft pick. I think we value draft picks too high, they are great but as soon as you are out of the top 5 there is so much risk involved in them, espeically in this draft as i do not think there is a lot of strong talent. Although orlando receives a risky asset in gordon he alsor eceives fournier who he has proven himself as a capable defender and good shooter. Is he great? no....but he is more proven than mkg or the boston pick....

i accept

Fournier is a great shooter, but good defender? His DRating is 110 (on the year and career average), his DRPM is an atrocious -2.44, a -1.4 DBPM (a slight improvement on his -1.7 career DBPM). Maybe he's better than his defensive stats suggest, but at best that puts him just a bit below average. And for such a good shooter, a team like Orlando that desperately needed perimeter threats would have definitely used him enough to push his season scoring average above 15.4... I just have to say it, I'm not even a little bit enamored with Fournier like everyone else seems to be. That top ten pick has a really excellent chance to be equal to or better than Fournier.

[John Stockton]

Apr 25, 2016 19:36:15 GMT -5 Brown Cobb IV said:

evan fournier > top 10 pick this draft

wut

[Colin Loftin]

MKG is the most valuable asset in this trade, and he's definitely the best player in this trade and that's not even close. Fournier is a good shooter, but that's pretty much it. He is a bad defender to the point that this year when he's on the court, opposing teams have on ORTG of 109.1, which would be slightly better than the Blazers 6th in the league. When he's off the court, teams have an ORTG of 102.9 which would be slightly worse than the Nets in 27th. Has MKG had some injury problems? Sure, but they seem to be more of the freak accident variety rather than he's got some sort of chronic ailment. I'm not even going to bother comparing MKG to Gordon.

I think Boston's 1st might be the 2nd most valuable asset. I know a lot of people are down on this draft class, but I think there are a lot of intriguing guys in the 10-20 range. Giving up a top 10 pick for either Fournier or Gordon seems like a steep price to pay. 

It's my feeling that Orlando is giving up the two most valuable pieces in this trade, so I have to reject.

[Justin Timberlake]

Alrighty then....

It was never my intention to have such an apparently controversial trade. Still don't think it is. Up to Brian Scalabrine to give the final word now..

[Steve Jobs]

Apr 26, 2016 0:20:26 GMT -5 Justin Timberlake said:

Alrighty then....

It was never my intention to have such an apparently controversial trade. Still don't think it is. Up to Brian Scalabrine to give the final word now..

I have had a lot of those unintentionally controversial trades, so I feel you there.  


I may be alone in this, but even if AI proves to be killing it in here, I'm still going to coddle the Magic a bit for the next few trades to make sure that they can right the ship from the rough stretch they just went through (seemingly even-value trades that really tank their current and long-term ability to contend).  A deal like this, while not a terribly lopsided swap, could really end up hurting them if the cards fall the way I think they will.  And obviously, while I personally hope it's rejected, it's still up to Brian to decide the fate of this one.

[Brian Scalabrine]

Ugh, I've been so back and forth about this, but I think I'll reject. I just think it's likely that ORL can find a better deal for that pick, and for MKG. For the record though, if PHX sent a future first instead of the SAC pick, I'd accept.

[Justin Timberlake]

A bit ridiculous that a trade that would go through without a doubt for any another team isn't going through because of what Doc did and the TC failed to do..

[billy]

Trade Rejected.

[Colin Loftin]

Apr 26, 2016 13:24:46 GMT -5 Justin Timberlake said:

A bit ridiculous that a trade that would go through without a doubt for any another team isn't going through because of what Doc did and the TC failed to do..

It might be that it was just a questionable trade and that some of the trade committee has opinions on the players involved that differ from yours. I didn't take into account what Doc had done in looking at this deal, and there have been changes to the TC since some of his deals (one in particular) went through. I think that if you take a look at the rejected trades page, you'll see quite a few rejected Magic trades so I don't know that it's necessarily the TC failing in any way. The Butler trade probably (definitely) shouldn't have gone through. Either way, I'd guess that complaining about the trade committee is probably not the best way to go about things.

[billy]

Apr 26, 2016 14:28:44 GMT -5 Colin Loftin said:

Apr 26, 2016 13:24:46 GMT -5 Justin Timberlake said:

A bit ridiculous that a trade that would go through without a doubt for any another team isn't going through because of what Doc did and the TC failed to do..

It might be that it was just a questionable trade and that some of the trade committee has opinions on the players involved that differ from yours. I didn't take into account what Doc had done in looking at this deal, and there have been changes to the TC since some of his deals (one in particular) went through. I think that if you take a look at the rejected trades page, you'll see quite a few rejected Magic trades so I don't know that it's necessarily the TC failing in any way. The Butler trade probably (definitely) shouldn't have gone through. Either way, I'd guess that complaining about the trade committee is probably not the best way to go about things.

I'm still surprised that trade got accepted.

[Colin Loftin]

Apr 26, 2016 14:38:08 GMT -5 billy said:

Apr 26, 2016 14:28:44 GMT -5 Colin Loftin said:

It might be that it was just a questionable trade and that some of the trade committee has opinions on the players involved that differ from yours. I didn't take into account what Doc had done in looking at this deal, and there have been changes to the TC since some of his deals (one in particular) went through. I think that if you take a look at the rejected trades page, you'll see quite a few rejected Magic trades so I don't know that it's necessarily the TC failing in any way. The Butler trade probably (definitely) shouldn't have gone through. Either way, I'd guess that complaining about the trade committee is probably not the best way to go about things.

I'm still surprised that trade got accepted.

Haha me too

[Steve Jobs]

Apr 26, 2016 13:24:46 GMT -5 Justin Timberlake said:

A bit ridiculous that a trade that would go through without a doubt for any another team isn't going through because of what Doc did and the TC failed to do..

The only TC that said anything about being over-protective with Orlando is me. Every other reject came on the merits of the trade. I don't know how you can even pretend to call out the TC like this would have gone through for any other team. It clearly wouldn't have, it's not a good trade for Orlando in the opinions of 3 different TC members.

And at that, it's not wrong or unrealistic for the TC to operate under different ideals for different teams. That's part of our purpose... to operate in the best interest of every team without interfering too much in their team building attempts. If we feel a trade is too far in the favor of one team, for any given reason, it's our duty to say so.

[Justin Timberlake]

I think you guys are reading into that comment a bit too much... Wasn't hostile. When I said a bit I truly meant a little bit lol