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Post by John Stockton on Jun 16, 2016 21:03:48 GMT -5
 Sacramento Kings BOS 2018 1st SEA 2018 1st for  Seattle Supersonics
PF 64 Tristan Thompson $12,000,000 $13,200,000 $14.400,000 $15.600,000 $16,800,000PG 58 Shane Larkin $700,000 $770,000 |
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Post by John Stockton on Jun 16, 2016 21:07:41 GMT -5
The Supersonics accept this trade. After much discussion, Kong and I felt that it is in the best interest of the franchise to part ways with TT and Larkin. They were both essential part of our championship run this season but we are preparing to make a noise in FA this off season and this allows us to make room to do just that. With the plethora of picks Doc recently acquired, he is in rebuilding mode and acquiring pieces like TT and Larkin for 2018 picks will only help him achieve that.
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Post by Brown Cobb IV on Jun 16, 2016 21:20:43 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 21:26:08 GMT -5
I accept this trade, I get two young guys with some potential and will help me contend this season while Seattle gets some picks that may or may not be worth much in a few years. TT will serve as a solid C or backup PF to Gibson while Larkin will be a backup PG to Hill until he is ready to fill a starting position :) I'm not too worried about the cap space and I still have plenty left over, while Seattle gets some cap space themselves which I'm sure will benefit them but I'm focusing my attention on the draft first :)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 21:49:39 GMT -5
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Allan Houston
 New York Knicks
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Post by Allan Houston on Jun 16, 2016 23:12:26 GMT -5
Uh oh. Can I reject this trade? I'm not part of the trade committee, but.. please?
Edit: I will say, if I may, that Seattle shouldn't have enough leverage to get two firsts, or much of anything here. He presumably wants a max player, and with his team as is he can clearly convince one to come. All he has to do is get rid of TT, and maybe a tiny bit more. You're arguably doing him a favor by taking TT.
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Post by John Stockton on Jun 17, 2016 0:06:53 GMT -5
Uh oh. Can I reject this trade? I'm not part of the trade committee, but.. please? Edit: I will say, if I may, that Seattle shouldn't have enough leverage to get two firsts, or much of anything here. He presumably wants a max player, and with his team as is he can clearly convince one to come. All he has to do is get rid of TT, and maybe a tiny bit more. You're arguably doing him a favor by taking TT. While it's true we are trying to make moves in the free agency, it should be noted that it's definitely not a sure thing. Let's not forget, there is only one player we want (KD) and we are taking a huge leap of faith and a ton of risk to make this happen. Also, the point of trades is to makes moves that benefit both teams and as a rebuilding team, we are helping out Sacramento with young pieces to build around. Also, assuming my team doesn't fall apart in two years, that seattle pick will be in the high 20s so i think it's a little short sighted to simplify it as just 'two 1st rd picks'. |
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Post by John Stockton on Jun 17, 2016 0:12:55 GMT -5
I mean TT is starting on a finals team and currently tearing it up. His value is at an all time high right now and has received several offers with 1sts from other teams
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Allan Houston
New York Knicks
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Post by Allan Houston on Jun 17, 2016 0:24:02 GMT -5
This trade is effectively TT and Larkin for two firsts (One may be low, it's still a first. And that's your first, which is more valuable since you have control over it's destiny) and a max player.
That max player may be KD. Maybe not. Let's say KD returns to OKC irl and the PAs decide he should do the same here. Then you go after Horford or Whiteside or whoever. Let's say, even, it's Harrison Barnes, who doesn't deserve a max salary. Is TT and Larkin fair for Barnes and two firsts? I think that's lopsided. And you're getting better than Barnes. A max FA will want join you. There's not that much risk.
That said, if teams are offering you firsts, that's the market. I think those teams are making a mistake, though, and not realizing where the leverage is. I can't keep other teams from making mistakes, especially not being part of the TC.
And let's not ignore who your trade partner happens to be.
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Post by John Stockton on Jun 17, 2016 1:06:50 GMT -5
FWIW, I don't plan on tanking in 2018 so I'm not so sure that it does add any value to my pick knowing that its destiny is pretty much settled at this point.
While I agree with most of what you said, I think you are missing one big point and that's what Doc ends up gaining in this trade. With a rebuilding team, I can't see Sacramento being an attractive destination for free agents and with several picks left for Doc to work with, Sacramento isn't losing much by giving up picks 2 years into the future to acquire a 25 year old center under a long term deal.
I also want to clear up that KD is our only target in free agency and that is the sole reason we are proceeding with this deal. While Whiteside and Horford are great players and valuable pieces, I can safely say that we would NOT be making this trade if KD weren't available this off season.
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Allan Houston
New York Knicks
Deputy Commissioner
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Post by Allan Houston on Jun 17, 2016 1:18:35 GMT -5
You may not plan on it, but it may happen regardless. Injuries and whatnot. See: Duncan, Tim.
I don't disagree that Doc is gaining. I also think Doc is gaining if, instead of giving up two 1sts, he gives up only:
1: One 1st and One 2nd
OR
2: One 1st
OR
3: Two 2nds
OR
4: One 2nd
Or
5: Nothing
Or
6: He gets back an additional 2nd
Etc.
And I think you would, or rather should (you should want Horford for TT, etc.), accept something closer to (6) than the current offer. In a fair trade, Doc should gain in an equal degree to how much you gain.
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Post by John Stockton on Jun 17, 2016 1:28:30 GMT -5
In a fair trade, Doc should gain in an equal degree to how much you gain. I guess this is where we disagree, and will leave up to the TC to decide. I firmly believe that this is a fair trade with Doc gaining just as much I am, given that I am also taking on the risk of missing out on my one and only free agent target. |
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Steve Jobs
 Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Jun 17, 2016 6:10:25 GMT -5
Tristan Fucking Thompson... Come on, Doc. Tristan is the most average PF of all time, you can easily find a Tristan Thompson-esque player with a little bit of cap space (probably like 10M) and then get the good player and two picks. No chance Thompson and Larkin are worth two firsts, especially not if you knew John's plan before hand and consider how much more he gains than what you're gaining if his plan to add KD works out... Although, I have no reason to take him at his word when he says KD is absolutely the only free agent he's interested in. Horford and Conley are both attractive free agent targets that would gladly jump on board a super team and adding any of them would give John unprecedented trading power.
When BC chose to start rebuilding, his bread and butter was the exact opposite of this deal: putting together pre-Free Agency trades that had people sending him players and picks for nothing since he had all the leverage in negotiations for those teams that desired to clear cap space. If Doc is really interested in following suit, he shouldn't be adding players like TT in the now when his future could be fairly secure with one or two seasons of tanking, acquiring new assets by making some BC-lite deals this offseason, and trading some of those assets for those young talented players later on.
I reject. Too much for TT, too little return for Sac in a trade where they should have some leverage.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2016 9:58:51 GMT -5
Tristan Fucking Thompson... Come on, Doc. Tristan is the most average PF of all time, you can easily find a Tristan Thompson-esque player with a little bit of cap space (probably like 10M) and then get the good player and two picks. No chance Thompson and Larkin are worth two firsts, especially not if you knew John's plan before hand and consider how much more he gains than what you're gaining if his plan to add KD works out... Although, I have no reason to take him at his word when he says KD is absolutely the only free agent he's interested in. Horford and Conley are both attractive free agent targets that would gladly jump on board a super team and adding any of them would give John unprecedented trading power. When BC chose to start rebuilding, his bread and butter was the exact opposite of this deal: putting together pre-Free Agency trades that had people sending him players and picks for nothing since he had all the leverage in negotiations for those teams that desired to clear cap space. If Doc is really interested in following suit, he shouldn't be adding players like TT in the now when his future could be fairly secure with one or two seasons of tanking, acquiring new assets by making some BC-lite deals this offseason, and trading some of those assets for those young talented players later on. I reject. Too much for TT, too little return for Sac in a trade where they should have some leverage. TT probably won't be worth much as an asset I guess, personally I think people overrate him. ESPN thinks that the minute a player makes the Finals they're invincible but not too many want a backup PF, TT isn't worth trading for unless I was planning on contending somewhat. He'll just clog up the cap and be stuck on my roster, maybe this trade would be more evened out if I was getting a good asset and Seattle wasn't benefiting so much, considering this trade would help them in FA and it would never help me with TT stuck on my team. oh well, if this get rejected me and John Stockton can revise it somehow for the better. But Seattle doesn't have and really good rookies anyways...we'll see how it goes. |
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billy
 Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Jun 17, 2016 10:02:10 GMT -5
TT probably won't be worth much as an asset I guess, personally I think people overrate him. ESPN thinks that the minute a player makes the Finals they're invincible but not too many want a backup PF, TT isn't worth trading for unless I was planning on contending somewhat. He'll just clog up the cap and be stuck on my roster, maybe this trade would be more evened out if I was getting a good asset and Seattle wasn't benefiting so much, considering this trade would help them in FA and it would never help me with TT stuck on my team. oh well, if this get rejected me and John Stockton can revise it somehow for the better. But Seattle doesn't have and really good rookies anyways...we'll see how it goes. What the hell am I reading? Didn't you just give up 2 first round picks for this guy? |
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Post by Brown Cobb IV on Jun 17, 2016 10:09:38 GMT -5
Lmao
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Kong
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Post by Kong on Jun 17, 2016 10:34:11 GMT -5
The allies in this thread will be opponents in the near future.
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Post by John Stockton on Jun 17, 2016 11:17:36 GMT -5
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Theodore Duncan
 Portland Trail Blazers
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Post by Theodore Duncan on Jun 17, 2016 11:23:46 GMT -5
in D5 his contract is $6,500,000 $7,000,000 $7,000,000 $7,500,000
here: $13,200,000 $14.400,000 $15.600,000 $16,800,000
That's a huge difference in value
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Kong
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Post by Kong on Jun 17, 2016 11:45:29 GMT -5
but cap was a lot different back then.
Max contracts are about to jump to $23M,$27.6M,$32.3 depending on the years played. And with most teams under the cap, there will be lots of max contracts I bet. In real life, they were even talking about Biyombo possibly getting max? And let's not forget they are saying cap should jump even more in 2 years.
I don't get the leverage point. I mean, we (Sonics) have leverage because we can go for FAs. Even without these trade, we have like $12M in cap. Kings on the other hand, what FAs they can get? Especially with all teams other than Toronto over the cap.
And if we can go for a max player with a couple of moves it is only because of the amazing job John did managing contracts. Not because of this single move. Like I said, Max contracts might be $23M,$27.6M,$32.3 not $14M.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2016 12:05:18 GMT -5
TT probably won't be worth much as an asset I guess, personally I think people overrate him. ESPN thinks that the minute a player makes the Finals they're invincible but not too many want a backup PF, TT isn't worth trading for unless I was planning on contending somewhat. He'll just clog up the cap and be stuck on my roster, maybe this trade would be more evened out if I was getting a good asset and Seattle wasn't benefiting so much, considering this trade would help them in FA and it would never help me with TT stuck on my team. oh well, if this get rejected me and John Stockton can revise it somehow for the better. But Seattle doesn't have and really good rookies anyways...we'll see how it goes. What the hell am I reading? Didn't you just give up 2 first round picks for this guy? Yes, but that was a mistake........ |
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Post by Allen Iverson on Jun 17, 2016 12:34:39 GMT -5
LOL
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Jun 17, 2016 12:55:17 GMT -5
but cap was a lot different back then. Max contracts are about to jump to $23M,$27.6M,$32.3 depending on the years played. And with most teams under the cap, there will be lots of max contracts I bet. In real life, they were even talking about Biyombo possibly getting max? And let's not forget they are saying cap should jump even more in 2 years. I don't get the leverage point. I mean, we (Sonics) have leverage because we can go for FAs. Even without these trade, we have like $12M in cap. Kings on the other hand, what FAs they can get? Especially with all teams other than Toronto over the cap. And if we can go for a max player with a couple of moves it is only because of the amazing job John did managing contracts. Not because of this single move. Like I said, Max contracts might be $23M,$27.6M,$32.3 not $14M. In July of 2015, we already knew that 6-7M was going to be ~10% of the cap. Even after the cap goes up AGAIN next year and the year after that, 12-14 is still a greater cap hit by percentages than 6-7M was back then. So no, that argument is absurd. The leverage point is saying there is massive precedent in this league for teams that want to clear cap space for free agent moves to need to ADD value to the player they are moving (especially when the player sucks like TT) in order to get rid of the extra salary. The side taking that cap has the leverage because everybody in this league knows (or should know) that there is a long history of trades like this. Do I think it's pretty stupid? Of course. But when I'm judging trades based on fair value and precedent, you bet your ass I'm going to point out that Doc is not using the leverage he inherently has in this deal to maximum effect and that makes it rejectable to me. That 12M in cap, John has already said he only wants Durant. 12M is not enough for Durant. So, you have need for extra cap space and that gives anybody leverage in negotiations with you... But even if only wanting Durant wasn't true (very possible), any big name free agent will require more cap room than that. The Kings don't need to be aiming for free agents this year, they need to be hoarding picks and cap space for the future. Taking on TT's contract and giving up two 1st rounders to do it is the exact opposite of that. |
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Post by John Stockton on Jun 17, 2016 15:16:47 GMT -5
billy Justin Timberlake Colin Loftin Pete Maravichcan we just get some votes on this? this is the off season where trades should be voted on pretty quickly. we have some other moves that we are interested in pursuing pending this trade.
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Jun 17, 2016 15:17:22 GMT -5
doc reject
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Post by John Stockton on Jun 17, 2016 15:30:42 GMT -5
in D5 his contract is $6,500,000 $7,000,000 $7,000,000 $7,500,000 here: $13,200,000 $14.400,000 $15.600,000 $16,800,000 That's a huge difference in value yeah but I got 2 firsts and 3 seconds in that trade while I'm essentially receiving a first and a second in this trade |
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Pete Maravich
 Washington Wizards
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Post by Pete Maravich on Jun 17, 2016 16:06:20 GMT -5
Is this one still live or Doc begged for mercy? |
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Jun 17, 2016 16:08:34 GMT -5
Is this one still live or Doc begged for mercy? You can't unaccept a trade after accepting it, so still alive. Doc reject is a special form of reject for doc as outlined in the rejected Portland trade. |
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Pete Maravich
Washington Wizards
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Post by Pete Maravich on Jun 17, 2016 16:24:50 GMT -5
I was on the fence on this one as I like TT less than the general consensus but maybe not after this thread. I believe he is a 9-13M player over the life of his contract. That puts him below his salary but he still has value.
I don't see either of the picks being too high & they are two years down the road which brings the value down a bit.
I do not believe Seattle's FA flexibility should be factored in to the judgement of this deal.
I think Seattle is getting the better of this deal but I do not view it as a reject.
I accept (softly)
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Post by Justin Timberlake on Jun 17, 2016 16:33:09 GMT -5
I'm going to reject as well. Doc needs to slow down. This makes no sense for him really. Doc, youre a rebuilding team now, this will take patience and vision. Pulling the trigger on every trade is just spinning your tires
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Phoenix Suns