Cleveland - LA Clippers - Washington (Revision)

[Pete Maravich]

Cleveland sends:


Elfrid Payton $2,613,600 $3,332,340 $4,538,647
Wesley Matthews $14,000,000 $12,600,000 $12,600,000 $11,340,000
Rodney Hood $1,406,520 $2,386,864 $3,472,887
James Ennis $980,431 $1,251,245
2018 CLE 1st

Cleveland receives:

Damian Lillard $28,200,000 $30,315,000 $32,430,000 $34,545,000 $36,660,000
Cory Joseph $7,200,000 $7,400,000 $8,000,000

Post Trade Salary - $90,018,057


LA Clippers sends:

Damian Lillard $28,200,000 $30,315,000 $32,430,000 $34,545,000 $36,660,000

LA Clippers receives:

2017 LAC 1st
2018 CLE 1st
Rodney Hood $1,406,520 $2,386,864 $3,472,887
Tyson Chandler $19,250,000 $21,000,000 $22,750,000 $24,500,000

Post Trade Salary - $63,635,304


Washington sends:

2017 LAC 1st
Tyson Chandler $19,250,000 $21,000,000 $22,750,000 $24,500,000
Cory Joseph $7,200,000 $7,400,000 $8,000,000

Washington receives:

Elfrid Payton $2,613,600 $3,332,340 $4,538,647
James Ennis $980,431 $1,251,245
Wesley Matthews $14,000,000 $12,600,000 $12,600,000 $11,340,000

Post Trade Salary - $50,189,711



@docrivers101
Keith Van Horn

[Deleted]

Accept, Im shopping right now and only have a few minutes so I'll post my reasoning ASAP when i get back to my hotel.

[Keith Van Horn]

Who knows if this trade is acceptable for the SS of a trade committee we have.

I accept. The 2018 1st is worth a lot to me, as my team is still very young, but I feel as though it is worth it.

[billy]

Dec 29, 2016 1:12:16 GMT -5 Keith Van Horn said:

Who knows if this trade is acceptable for the SS of a trade committee we have.

I accept. The 2018 1st is worth a lot to me, as my team is still very young, but I feel as though it is worth it.

Kek clippers want to tank but they don't even own their 2019 pick either. It's a dicey proposition, a deal like this one could be what we point to as the final doom for this franchise at least until 2020.

[Pete Maravich]

Steve Jobs
Brown Cobb IV
Colin Loftin
Justin Timberlake
John Stockton

[Pete Maravich]

This gives Doc a total of 4 1sts in the next 2 years.  He had one before he moved Curry.  Compare this to the accepted price of Lillard this offseason which was Oladipo & Holiday.  Oladipo = Hood IMO.  Who wouldn't move Holiday for their own top 5 pick, a 1st in the following year, & the TC negative asset when cap won't be an issue in the near future?

[billy]

Dec 29, 2016 9:24:28 GMT -5 Pete Maravich said:

This gives Doc a total of 4 1sts in the next 2 years.  He had one before he moved Curry.  Compare this to the accepted price of Lillard this offseason which was Oladipo & Holiday.  Oladipo = Hood IMO.  Who wouldn't move Holiday for their own top 5 pick, a 1st in the following year, & the TC negative asset when cap won't be an issue in the near future?

Accepted? Oladipo and Holiday was rejected my friend. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion ;)

Fair enough points otherwise.

[kong]

Dec 29, 2016 1:12:16 GMT -5 Keith Van Horn said:

The 2018 1st is worth a lot to me, as my team is still very young, but I feel as though it is worth it.

Thats a tricky argument because it is true now but it wont be anymore once you get Lillard, Giannis is stockwatched and you get other good FAs during off-season. :P
Don't think it is a horrible deal but Clippers is the last team that should be taking Chandler if they want to tank now and dont own their 2019 1st. Don't saying it is rejectable though. Just that it is tricky.

[Keith Van Horn]

Dec 29, 2016 7:35:26 GMT -5 billy said:

Dec 29, 2016 1:12:16 GMT -5 Keith Van Horn said:

Who knows if this trade is acceptable for the SS of a trade committee we have.

I accept. The 2018 1st is worth a lot to me, as my team is still very young, but I feel as though it is worth it.

Kek clippers want to tank but they don't even own their 2019 pick either. It's a dicey proposition, a deal like this one could be what we point to as the final doom for this franchise at least until 2020.

He would have 2 years to attempt to retrieve his 2019 though. It isn't as if he doesn't own it and its this season and is making this move then. 

How many franchises are already doomed between now and 2020? And how many will become doomed? Sim leagues are cyclical because there is no reward for having a "decent" team. You don't sell tickets, you don't receive profits. 

If this trade will "doom" the Clippers, does it matter? We let the Sonics get Durant, LeBron, and Kawhi. Those guys are arguably the 3 best players in the NBA. In order to compete with the Sonics, on paper, a team must acquire 3 top 15 players to at least have a shot. The Clippers are in no position to trade for 2 more stars, if we want to say Lillard is a top 15 player. And free agency is so so so unforgiving. 

A franchise is left with no choice but to tank, no matter the circumstance if it is in the West and cannot put together a roster capable of beating the Sonics. That is what is killing this league, not GMs attempting to assemble a team capable of competing. 

[Keith Van Horn]

Dec 29, 2016 19:08:50 GMT -5 Keith Van Horn said:

Dec 29, 2016 7:35:26 GMT -5 billy said:

Kek clippers want to tank but they don't even own their 2019 pick either. It's a dicey proposition, a deal like this one could be what we point to as the final doom for this franchise at least until 2020.

He would have 2 years to attempt to retrieve his 2019 though. It isn't as if he doesn't own it and its this season and is making this move then. 

How many franchises are already doomed between now and 2020? And how many will become doomed? Sim leagues are cyclical because there is no reward for having a "decent" team. You don't sell tickets, you don't receive profits. 

If this trade will "doom" the Clippers, does it matter? We let the Sonics get Durant, LeBron, and Kawhi. Those guys are arguably the 3 best players in the NBA. In order to compete with the Sonics, on paper, a team must acquire 3 top 15 players to at least have a shot. The Clippers are in no position to trade for 2 more stars, if we want to say Lillard is a top 15 player. And free agency is so so so unforgiving. 

A franchise is left with no choice but to tank, no matter the circumstance if it is in the West and cannot put together a roster capable of beating the Sonics. That is what is killing this league, not GMs attempting to assemble a team capable of competing. 

So for Doc, it is either trade Lillard and tank, and he gets his own pick in this deal. Try and somehow trade for 2 more stars. Or roll the dice on free agency. Yeah, the draft is sometimes a toss up, but at least there is some skill involved, where as free agency is just being left to the vices of other GMs acting as player agents.  

[Yeezy]

The Sonics being so good was quoted in a few trade rejections because there's no point

[billy]

I'm going to vote as an alternate for Brown Cobb, because he is away in Mexico and won't be back in time to vote on this trade.

I'm going to accept -- and just barely. Frankly, I think both Doc and Pete are being taken for a ride here. This is much too little for Lillard (based on the past trades lillard has moved in), and I was high on Payton before last year, but he definitely isn't worth a top 5 pick in this draft, but hey Pete hates prospects.

smh. This is such a clear winner here, I probably shouldn't accept it. I think Pete is going to regret this in the matter of a couple months, Doc may be fine with it if he has enough patience. Good job Keith, we both know you're talking out of your ass and you know exactly how rapey this is.

[Steve Jobs]

Dec 29, 2016 19:10:36 GMT -5 Keith Van Horn said:

Dec 29, 2016 19:08:50 GMT -5 Keith Van Horn said:

He would have 2 years to attempt to retrieve his 2019 though. It isn't as if he doesn't own it and its this season and is making this move then. 

How many franchises are already doomed between now and 2020? And how many will become doomed? Sim leagues are cyclical because there is no reward for having a "decent" team. You don't sell tickets, you don't receive profits. 

If this trade will "doom" the Clippers, does it matter? We let the Sonics get Durant, LeBron, and Kawhi. Those guys are arguably the 3 best players in the NBA. In order to compete with the Sonics, on paper, a team must acquire 3 top 15 players to at least have a shot. The Clippers are in no position to trade for 2 more stars, if we want to say Lillard is a top 15 player. And free agency is so so so unforgiving. 

A franchise is left with no choice but to tank, no matter the circumstance if it is in the West and cannot put together a roster capable of beating the Sonics. That is what is killing this league, not GMs attempting to assemble a team capable of competing. 

So for Doc, it is either trade Lillard and tank, and he gets his own pick in this deal. Try and somehow trade for 2 more stars. Or roll the dice on free agency. Yeah, the draft is sometimes a toss up, but at least there is some skill involved, where as free agency is just being left to the vices of other GMs acting as player agents.  

You're not wrong, you're just ignoring that this Clippers team is not currently in a great position to start a tank, and giving up a player that might be better than any prospect he could get with his pick for his first, a few decent pieces, and a complete shit albatross contract is not a great way to start the tank. We're against it because Lillard is probably worth more, not because the trade isn't attempting to accomplish what the team needs to accomplish.

[Steve Jobs]

Still reject for me. Doc needs to have waaaay more patience here and find a trade for Lillard that gets him great value all around. His team is losing just fine as it is, so he's not really in any danger of failing this tank because of Lillard. With the time he has, he could put together a better deal, be it for his pick or not, that would put him in a better position to go forward without taking on negative value to do it.

[Justin Timberlake]

I agree with my other TC members here and still a reject for me. Doc has way more options than to get 2 more stars or trade Lillard to get his pick back. Making it seem like this is the only option isn't the right way to look at this imo. Using patience and looking for some other options might be the best thing. The Clippers are rough but let's not be rash and make them worse.

I can think of a few teams with the possible assets and needs for a trade involving Lillard. Being handcuffed by the idea that Doc needs his pick back is only going to lead to him losing leverage and getting the short end of the stick.

When something is so borderline and tricky to judge, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[John Stockton]

rejecto

[Keith Van Horn]

Dec 29, 2016 19:11:12 GMT -5 Yeezy said:

The Sonics being so good was quoted in a few trade rejections because there's no point

There is almost no point. Whoever let that shit happen should feel bad. 

[Keith Van Horn]

Dec 29, 2016 19:53:10 GMT -5 billy said:

I'm going to vote as an alternate for Brown Cobb, because he is away in Mexico and won't be back in time to vote on this trade.

I'm going to accept -- and just barely. Frankly, I think both Doc and Pete are being taken for a ride here. This is much too little for Lillard (based on the past trades lillard has moved in), and I was high on Payton before last year, but he definitely isn't worth a top 5 pick in this draft, but hey Pete hates prospects.

smh. This is such a clear winner here, I probably shouldn't accept it. I think Pete is going to regret this in the matter of a couple months, Doc may be fine with it if he has enough patience. Good job Keith, we both know you're talking out of your ass and you know exactly how rapey this is.

Basing what a player is worth in the past is not a good practice. Circumstances change. I do understand that he was traded not too long ago, but the value to the previous team is different than the value of Lillard to the current team.

[Keith Van Horn]

The Trade Committee exists in a sim league to disallow collusion and prevent a team from becoming uninviting for a new GM when a GM leaves; not to reject bad trades. If I were Kong, I would reject every trade. Because if I can keep the landscape of the league unchanged, I win. I could do this by not allowing teams to fully tank and sell their assets for prospects and picks. I could also do this by rejecting trades of superstars that would put a team at 2 or 3 superstars.

Doc is not going to get a better offer for Lillard than his own pick, a 2018 first, and a top prospect like Hood. Without trading with the Wizards, tanking is utterly pointless for him this season. Instead, he is going to have to play out his seasons with a team he is unhappy with. And they already are not doing well.

The trades that are allowed in this league, and the ones that are rejected, are dumb.

[Justin Timberlake]

Dec 29, 2016 23:42:00 GMT -5 Keith Van Horn said:

The Trade Committee exists in a sim league to disallow collusion and prevent a team from becoming uninviting for a new GM when a GM leaves; not to reject bad trades. If I were Kong, I would reject every trade. Because if I can keep the landscape of the league unchanged, I win. I could do this by not allowing teams to fully tank and sell their assets for prospects and picks. I could also do this by rejecting trades of superstars that would put a team at 2 or 3 superstars.

Doc is not going to get a better offer for Lillard than his own pick, a 2018 first, and a top prospect like Hood. Without trading with the Wizards, tanking is utterly pointless for him this season. Instead, he is going to have to play out his seasons with a team he is unhappy with. And they already are not doing well.

The trades that are allowed in this league, and the ones that are rejected, are dumb.

"prevent[ing] a team from becoming uninviting for a new GM when a GM leaves".

This is why I voted the reason that I did. Doc is blowing up the worst team in the league. Starting with Curry and ending with Hood, the Chandler contract, a bottom 2018 1st and his own pick makes the Clippers even more uninviting than before imo.

[kong]

Sonics got more rejections than Will Ferrell at the Roxbury.

[Steve Jobs]

Dec 29, 2016 23:42:00 GMT -5 Keith Van Horn said:

The Trade Committee exists in a sim league to disallow collusion and prevent a team from becoming uninviting for a new GM when a GM leaves; not to reject bad trades. If I were Kong, I would reject every trade. Because if I can keep the landscape of the league unchanged, I win. I could do this by not allowing teams to fully tank and sell their assets for prospects and picks. I could also do this by rejecting trades of superstars that would put a team at 2 or 3 superstars.

Doc is not going to get a better offer for Lillard than his own pick, a 2018 first, and a top prospect like Hood. Without trading with the Wizards, tanking is utterly pointless for him this season. Instead, he is going to have to play out his seasons with a team he is unhappy with. And they already are not doing well.

The trades that are allowed in this league, and the ones that are rejected, are dumb.

Short of calling this trade collusion, I'd say it fits the bill. A long term tank job like BK's in NOP or the one BC put together with Atlanta takes:

- 4+ years worth of more picks than just your own
- The ability to trade any "talent" on your roster for good future prospects with low ratings
- Several years of patience and luck
- A GM that knows how to be patient to the point that they NEVER lose value in a trade.

The clippers are in a position where they need to be extremely cautious and work very hard to fit those criteria before any of us will feel comfortable saying they're on the upswing. A 1st, even if it's your own 1st and you want to start tanking, is NOT worth a proven superstar... never has been, never will be. Based purely on value, Lillard alone could easily be traded for both of the Clippers future picks back. Even if LAC doesn't get ANY of their picks back, someone out there is willing to pay what he's worth, and this current package isn't it yet. Trading your superstar away for this package is like betting your future financial stability on one $10 scratch off and a moldy sandwich, and what the Clippers really should be aiming for is a free ride to a good university with a meal plan.

[Steve Jobs]

I mean, are we really going to ignore the fact that Seattle has at most two years of KD before he probably re-enters free agency for a bigger piece of the pie? Two years, thus no bird rights. Seattle's current position is fantastic, but it's not like KD was signed to four years and the league is fucked forever. Overplaying your hand out of fear of Seattle is the EXACT wrong move for any team that wants to have a chance to build a dynasty, and any team that wants to win now (or TANK now) and doesn't care about their long term prospects is going to saddle any future GMs with the next Clippers. And even with a GM that's as willing to bear the punishment as Doc, the Clippers being relegated to the basement for years to come, without any real hope, just from ONE unlucky draft choice does NOT help this franchise more than just holding on to Lillard and seeing what they can do with him going forward. He'll eventually be worth more than this to someone even if maybe you're right that he isn't right now. Reject.

[Pete Maravich]

Can all these teams willing to give up the house for Lillard please contact Doc?  Trading a superstar without receiving a superstar in return is usually a break even value game at best.  I don't know what other options there are for Doc though in his scenario.  Maybe a younger high ceiling player still on a rookie contract as a centerpiece since Lillard is already in his prime.  There aren't many of those guys though.

From my perspective, it was hard to find value for the LAC 1st straight up unless it was built around Lillard himself.  He doesn't make any sense for my team right now as much as I do like him.  Adding the Chandler contract lowers the asking price.

I didn't think this was a reject but I think the TC is being extra cautious with LAC.  It sucks because putting these things together takes time and everyone has a different opinion but I understand it.

[Deleted]

Havent really received too many offers which dissappointed me, plus I get a decent potential player in Hood and I want my pick back which is achieved but if there are better offers out there than I'd love to hear them as long as it's a 3 way with Pete because I do want my pick lol

[Justin Timberlake]

Dec 30, 2016 13:07:20 GMT -5 @docrivers101 said:

Havent really received too many offers which dissappointed me, plus I get a decent potential player in Hood and I want my pick back which is achieved but if there are better offers out there than I'd love to hear them as long as it's a 3 way with Pete because I do want my pick lol

I don't think you've made it clear that Lillard was even available. How are you to receive offers if you haven't put out a trade block/status update? And sure your pick might be nice, but be open to other things as well. There are other options and high picks that don't belong to their team's this year.

[Steve Jobs]

Dec 30, 2016 13:07:20 GMT -5 @docrivers101 said:

Havent really received too many offers which dissappointed me, plus I get a decent potential player in Hood and I want my pick back which is achieved but if there are better offers out there than I'd love to hear them as long as it's a 3 way with Pete because I do want my pick lol

You have only officially been the Clippers' GM for... what, a month? Did you send feelers out to virtually every GM in the league who might have something to offer for Lillard that you're interested in?  I sent hundreds of messages to as many GMs as I could find that had something I thought I might want to make sure that I felt like I was getting the best possible value... for CORY JOSEPH!  This is Damian Fucking Lillard we're talking about now.  Jumping on the first offer that's even close for Lillard, especially one that leaves you with as little leverage as possible because it is for your own pick, isn't a great way to approach trading a superstar.  

Even if you're dead set on trading him this year, you have plenty of time until the trade deadline, when the contenders that would really be interested in Lillard will be at their most willing to put together a deal worth the value Lillard should command.  Be patient here, because your team is losing just fine with Lillard, so even if you want this season to be a tanker, you have some time left over to figure it out.

Worth mentioning as well: keeping Lillard wouldn't be the worst thing ever for your team.  He's a really great player, and he's about as good of a player as any single first round pick could ever net you, barring accidentally drafting the GOAT.  Just because he can't do much on his own right now doesn't mean that there are no alternatives that could see you keeping him around and benefitting from it.  Even if it's as simple as utilizing the time left on his contract to try to make smaller time signings in free agency that make your team potentially more intriguing for big name players looking to join Lillard.  And if you just 100% can't stomach that, just bide your time until someone willing to offer more than KVH is offering now (maybe even KVH would be willing to offer more in the future!) comes forward with a better three team deal that allows you to get your pick back, plus other great long term assets without having to take on Chandler long term.

Look, there is no "right answer" here... All I'm saying is that the Clippers ARE in a difficult spot, and figuring out how to get the team back to prosperity SHOULD be immensely difficult.  The one thing I know is that Lillard is your lifeline and you can't afford to throw him away for less than he's worth.  You don't have to ship him out of town today, or this month, or this year... You don't have to tank this season, and you don't have to tank at all.  You've got five years on his contract, and you have your own picks in 2018 and 2020 that, by the looks of things, could be successful tanks EVEN WITH Lillard on your roster - and if they aren't, you have all the time in the world to figure out what the absolute most you can get for him would be.  Losing value by trading Lillard, just for the sake of "tanking," won't get you where you're trying to go.  Being bad only solves your problems if you've got the picks or prospects in place to build your team from the ground up, and this specific trade does NOT give you that.  Any future trade of Lillard with the intention of tanking should address that point, and if the answer to "Would executing this trade give me sufficient value to build my team from the ground up?" is anything other than "absolutely, yes." then you shouldn't do the trade.

Focus on making deals that you know don't hurt you, and instead put you in a better position (be it with trades, acquisitions, etc.), and don't listen when other GMs try to tell you that the deal they're offering is the only possible way forward for your team, because if they say something like that they're most likely just trying to take advantage of you.

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2016 13:31:16 GMT -5 Justin Timberlake said:

Dec 30, 2016 13:07:20 GMT -5 @docrivers101 said:

Havent really received too many offers which dissappointed me, plus I get a decent potential player in Hood and I want my pick back which is achieved but if there are better offers out there than I'd love to hear them as long as it's a 3 way with Pete because I do want my pick lol

I don't think you've made it clear that Lillard was even available. How are you to receive offers if you haven't put out a trade block/status update? And sure your pick might be nice, but be open to other things as well. There are other options and high picks that don't belong to their team's this year.

Okay, this is true that I havent advertised it enough since Pete came to me right away and weve been negotiating for awhile and I was a little bit impatient but I'll make sure that my status which I always forget to update is updated.Lillard is officially OTB for those of you who don't know  :P

[Gregg Popovich]

Dec 30, 2016 15:25:56 GMT -5 @docrivers101 said:

Dec 30, 2016 13:31:16 GMT -5 Justin Timberlake said:

I don't think you've made it clear that Lillard was even available. How are you to receive offers if you haven't put out a trade block/status update? And sure your pick might be nice, but be open to other things as well. There are other options and high picks that don't belong to their team's this year.

Okay, this is true that I havent advertised it enough since Pete came to me right away and weve been negotiating for awhile and I was a little bit impatient but I'll make sure that my status which I always forget to update is updated.Lillard is officially OTB for those of you who don't know  :P

Little bit? More like u were very impatient. Take your time. Sims is still in December. I signed Lillard a max contract so you still have a couple of seasons to decide whether you want to trade him. For now, just ride it out.

[Brian Scalabrine]

Dec 30, 2016 6:40:39 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

Dec 29, 2016 23:42:00 GMT -5 Keith Van Horn said:

The Trade Committee exists in a sim league to disallow collusion and prevent a team from becoming uninviting for a new GM when a GM leaves; not to reject bad trades. If I were Kong, I would reject every trade. Because if I can keep the landscape of the league unchanged, I win. I could do this by not allowing teams to fully tank and sell their assets for prospects and picks. I could also do this by rejecting trades of superstars that would put a team at 2 or 3 superstars.

Doc is not going to get a better offer for Lillard than his own pick, a 2018 first, and a top prospect like Hood. Without trading with the Wizards, tanking is utterly pointless for him this season. Instead, he is going to have to play out his seasons with a team he is unhappy with. And they already are not doing well.

The trades that are allowed in this league, and the ones that are rejected, are dumb.

Short of calling this trade collusion, I'd say it fits the bill. A long term tank job like BK's in NOP or the one BC put together with Atlanta takes:

- 4+ years worth of more picks than just your own
- The ability to trade any "talent" on your roster for good future prospects with low ratings
- Several years of patience and luck
- A GM that knows how to be patient to the point that they NEVER lose value in a trade.

The clippers are in a position where they need to be extremely cautious and work very hard to fit those criteria before any of us will feel comfortable saying they're on the upswing. A 1st, even if it's your own 1st and you want to start tanking, is NOT worth a proven superstar... never has been, never will be. Based purely on value, Lillard alone could easily be traded for both of the Clippers future picks back. Even if LAC doesn't get ANY of their picks back, someone out there is willing to pay what he's worth, and this current package isn't it yet. Trading your superstar away for this package is like betting your future financial stability on one $10 scratch off and a moldy sandwich, and what the Clippers really should be aiming for is a free ride to a good university with a meal plan.

.... You trying to say I'm not doing a good tank job? :(