Seattle Supersonics-Detroit Pistons

[John Stockton]

Seattle Supersonics send:
71 Mike Conley $8,760,000 $9,680,000
62 Trey Burke $2,548,560 $2,658,240 $3,386,598 $4,588,840
60 Cody Zeller $4,030,560 $4,204,200 $5,318,313 $7,014,855
Total: $15,339,120

Detroit Pistons send:
75 John Wall $13,701,250 $14,728,844 $15,756,438 $16,784,031 $17,811,625

The Seattle Seahawks accept this trade. We love Conley as the #2 behind LeBron but Wall is a better passer and a better fit for our team. Zeller and Burke were solid contributors that saw plenty of playing time for our team as well as IRL and should continue only to improve. They also both have BR with RFA, which pretty much guarantees a resigning with the ability to go over the cap. He should be able to resign Conley by the time his contract is over with the cap increase in two years.

Stan Van Gundy
Steve Jobs Blake Bowman Donald Trump Keith Van Horn Reggie Miller billy

[Paul Pierce]

John Wall> Everything else

[Reggie Miller]

I'll wait for the response of Detroit GM

[Stan Van Gundy]

I accept.my current roster doing mess so i need to retool my team and try to go back to track.
8 like conley for being under rated po8nt guard in nba league he is the reason why memphis compite at top team of west conference..i want to wait for the two young players for there developement.

[Reggie Miller]

I accept.... The Pistons will have a great PG and a 2 very good prospects in exchange to Wall who's becoming a superstar PG... I would have rejected this if Mike Conley has a BR..

[John Stockton]

BUMP

[billy]

John wall is a fantastic player, a budding superstar, but we've seen players like that before not turn into superstars, so don't count Wall as having the value of a CP3 yet. And it is an impressive haul for any player. I'd like to hear what the other TC members have to say, I don't really relish having to vote in these TC member trades :P

[Keith Van Horn]

Reject. Wall and his contract, the ability to have him for a long time vs Conley on a 2 year deal and Burke and Zeller are garbage.

Seriously, trading arguably the best young PG in the game (age 24 or younger) on a long term contract, that will look really good with the rise in the cap for Conley, 3 years Wall's senior, and only on a 2 year deal. Burke and Zeller do not come anywhere close in my opinion in making up that gap.

[Keith Van Horn]

Anyone who thinks Conley is remotely close to Wall's level is out of their mind. Conley has never averaged more than 6.5 assists per game. While Conley is probably better defensively right now than Wall in just straight up man to man, Wall has all of the skills and potential to be a dominant defender in man, something that usually comes later in the career.

I honestly do not see how this is even close. Burke is trash. Zeller is trash. It might be fair if Conley was on a BR'd deal.

If I had Wall and someone brought this in to my PM, I don't know if I would just never respond and die of laughter or if I would just tell them to GTFO.

I don't see how Wall isn't considered a super star. Seriously, who is a better PG in the East than Wall? Kyrie? No, Wall is ahead of Kyrie because Kyrie cannot play defense. Wall at least racks up the steals. Pre-ACL Rose was a better PG, but that is long gone.

So, we are trading the best PG in the Eastern Conference on a 5 year deal that is just a little more than Kris fucking Middleton got for Mike Conley, on a 2 year deal. Mike Conley. I get that he is a good PG. But he is as good as he is going to get. He is solid defensively and controls the game well. But, please, GTFO if you think Conley is even in the 2nd tier of PGs in the NBA.

[Keith Van Horn]

Aug 9, 2015 20:13:45 GMT -5 Reggie Miller said:

I accept.... The Pistons will have a great PG and a 2 very good prospects in exchange to Wall who's becoming a superstar PG... I would have rejected this if Mike Conley has a BR..

You would have rejected this if Mike Conley was on a BR deal? Seriously? You think that would have been too in favor of the other side? Like come on man, do you watch basketball? Do you realize that Mike Conley is 27, the prime of his career and he is only averaging 5.5 assists a game and 15 points? And Wall is at 17 and 10 at just 24. Wall even had better steal numbers per game this year. 

I get that Conley is good. He is probably the best in the game at controlling the tempo and running his offense. But what does that account for? Really what does that account for? He plays with Marc and Z-Bo, arguably the best down low tandem in the league. He'd be an idiot if he didn't slow the pace down. Who does Wall play with? Marcin fucking Gortat and Nene. 

Like get real. 


If this trade passes, at least I will have said my peace and can only express my condolences to the Pistons.

[Reggie Miller]

I get your point..

Well Wall is one of my fav players up to date... he has the potential to be one great PG and already an all star.. yes Conley is a very good PG and on his prime yet he's not yet an all star.. He also has Gasol and Randolph to help him while Wall only have Beal but not always since he always gets injured..


Don't underestimate Burke and Zeller yet.. cause they have potential specially Burke now that Exum will not play this year.. Don't underestimate Conley also as I said he have Gasol that is pretty good on assist so Conley doesn't average that much on assisting.. Wizards is a Wall team while Grizz is a Gasol,Dolph and Conley team..

[John Stockton]

Keith Van Horn i feel like youre making your decision as if zeller and burke literally have zero value here. they're both promising young prospects on great contracts that have potential to be starters for years to come. if you believe that either of those players have reached their ceiling, i would tell you to GTFO. additionally, i would like to see your tier 1 and tier 2 of top pgs in the league, because im not sure what kind of ranking system youre using without conley as one of the top pgs in the league. looking solely at his numbers can be deceiving bc he does so many things that does not show up in stat sheets that john wall isnt capable of right now.

everyone has their opinions but i really think you're underselling conley/zeller/burke here. this trade also fits into detroit's future plans for this season and onwards. i feel like you would also have to count in the value he would get from improving his draft pick with this trade. with the recent slide his team has been on, it's clear stan wants to take his team in a different direction.

[Keith Van Horn]

Aug 11, 2015 19:55:19 GMT -5 John Stockton said:

Keith Van Horn i feel like youre making your decision as if zeller and burke literally have zero value here. they're both promising young prospects on great contracts that have potential to be starters for years to come. if you believe that either of those players have reached their ceiling, i would tell you to GTFO. additionally, i would like to see your tier 1 and tier 2 of top pgs in the league, because im not sure what kind of ranking system youre using without conley as one of the top pgs in the league. looking solely at his numbers can be deceiving bc he does so many things that does not show up in stat sheets that john wall isnt capable of right now.

everyone has their opinions but i really think you're underselling conley/zeller/burke here. this trade also fits into detroit's future plans for this season and onwards. i feel like you would also have to count in the value he would get from improving his draft pick with this trade. with the recent slide his team has been on, it's clear stan wants to take his team in a different direction.

Gonna work backwards on this one.

I do not see how a teams plan should be equated in to if a fair is trade or not. I am not sitting here and thinking about how something aligns with a teams plan, nor am I questioning a GM's plan. It is in my opinion that those are not things that I should be persuaded GM's about. It is their team, they can do what they want. They would obviously not do a trade if it did not fit in to their plan, so I feel like it is irrelevant. The GM can manage their team however they choose; I don't feel like it is good for the league if I look at a team and say, "well, they need to rebuild, so I need to be sure everything they do from this point forward goes in that direction." That would be just me enacting my beliefs and opinions about how to run a team on to other teams in this league. And I have a different idea about things than others; no ones' idea is the same. 

I am simply here to judge the fairness of the trade. A trade can favor one side or another and it not be rejected. It just can't favor one side so heavily. I am the sole juror, and I just say guilty or not guilty. However, I do have the responsibility to the league to make sure a GM is not leaving his team devoid of assets. I need to make sure that a GM doesn't just come in and completely destroy a team and leave. 

I am probably underselling Zeller and Burke, but it is my opinion. There isn't some end all be all NBA player rankings we have to follow here. I have that right to undersell or oversell a player. But since the point has been brought up, I will explain my opinion as to why I feel that Cody Zeller and Trey Burke are poop. 

Trey Burke came in to the league as an undersized PG who didn't really know how to play a true PG role but could shoot the 3. And what has he done in the NBA? 37.4% from the field and 32.4% from the 3 in his career. From his rookie season to his sophomore season, his minutes fell by about 2 a game but his stats went down in a way that cannot just be simply explained by a lack of minutes. I just do not feel strongly about the kid. He is undersized, he isn't above average athletically, he isn't some insane defender. His one strong spot has probably become a weakness considering he shoots the 3 so much. I also feel like he is the back up PG there, but with Exum out he gets one last chance. But, when you look at a possible line-up they could run, where Burks runs the point with Gordon at the 2 and Lyles, Favors, and Gobert rounding out the 3-4-5, Burke could be on the bench again. Burks got paid, Exum was the flashy overseas PG who was supposed to revitalize the offense and Trey Burke is the long forgotten lottery mistake. 

Now, Cody Zeller. By far the best Zeller. And bigs do take longer to develop in the league than guards or wings. But, most people would say, when looking at the dysfunctional Hornets, that Zeller is the 4th big in the rotation. Behind Al, Frank, and Spence. Zeller doesn't do anything exceptionally well. He is pretty much an average back up big in the NBA at this point in his career. Sure, his minutes are limited, but let us not get PER-36 Boners here. 

Both Zeller and Burke are at pivotal points in their careers. The 3rd year for any player usually makes or breaks them and decides whether they get that extension or not. And it plays a big role in to the offer sheets they get because GMs, whether they say it or not, are scared of the contract year theory. I mean, Trevor Ariza is probably the 5th best SF in the league on a contract year. But non-contract year? The guy is in the twenties. 

My tier of PGs would be as follows: 

Tier 1: Westbrook, Curry, Paul. Think this is pretty self explanatory. Each guy is the best in the league at one thing. And the rest of their game is great too. Sure, each may have a flaw here or a slight there, but, all in all, if you ask someone the 3 best PGs in the game right now, these guys would be it. And some would say Chris Paul doesn't deserve to be in this group, but look at CP3 in the playoffs. The guy can still score, he just doesn't have to in the regular season as much.

Tier 2: Kyrie, Teague, Wall. I also think this is pretty self explanatory as well. I think the gap between tier 1 and tier 2 is much greater than the gap between teir 2 and tier 3, but if poll a bunch of NBA guys who the top 6 PGs are in the NBA, I'd imagine the overwhelming majority of them mention these 6. 

Where does Conley fall? Probably tier 3. He isn't a bad PG. That isn't my argument. He plays good defense, controls the tempo, and is a pretty complete PG all in all. He just isn't a great PG, like I think the aforementioned 6 are.

My whole point of this trade has never been that Conley is a lot worse than Wall. Or that Wall was way better than Conley. If you put both of them on matching contracts and swapped them, I'd accept it. 

The thing here is that they aren't on matching contracts. Wall's contract is much much more team friendly than Conley's. "But how can that be if Wall makes nearly twice as much as Conley, Keith?!?" Well, it is because of the way the salary cap is expected to jump up. Conley will be looking at going in to FA without his team having his BRs and the cap being somewhere near 90 million. When everyone will have cap space and be competing for some of the top free agents.

And then you look at age. John Wall is 24. In NBA years, he isn't in his prime yet, which most people regard as 26-29. Where as Conley is 27. And then you look at injuries. Wall has been injured, but nothing seems to have lingered like in Conley's case, and his hamstring. And yes, I know, injuries do not matter right now. But they might in the future. And injuries certainly effect a player's value. 

So when I equate the fairness of the trade, I do not see it adding up. I think Wall is the superior player, he is younger, he is on a better contract and he may not be a lot better than Conley, but he is worth a lot more. And that is what trades are about. Not who is the better player. But who is worth more. Does the value on one side equal the value on the other. And in this particular instance, I do not feel Burke and Zeller make up the difference in value. 

Neither Burke nor Zeller were projected to be starters at their position on their respective real life teams, when the 2014-2015 NBA season ended, for the 2015-2016 NBA season. Yes, neither have reached their potential. But, there are countless of retired NBA players sitting at home on their couches who never reached their potential. Greg Oden and Hasheen Thabeet had a very high ceiling and a lot of potential and neither of them reached it. 

Will either of them get the opportunity to reach their potential? Or will they just be Uncle Rico, mumbling that if the coach would've put them in for the 4th quarter they would have been state champs.

[billy]

1-1

Blake Bowman
Steve Jobs
Donald Trump
billy

:P

[Keith Van Horn]

Aug 10, 2015 19:36:44 GMT -5 Reggie Miller said:

I get your point..

Well Wall is one of my fav players up to date... he has the potential to be one great PG and already an all star.. yes Conley is a very good PG and on his prime yet he's not yet an all star.. He also has Gasol and Randolph to help him while Wall only have Beal but not always since he always gets injured..


Don't underestimate Burke and Zeller yet.. cause they have potential specially Burke now that Exum will not play this year.. Don't underestimate Conley also as I said he have Gasol that is pretty good on assist so Conley doesn't average that much on assisting.. Wizards is a Wall team while Grizz is a Gasol,Dolph and Conley team..

You are aware you accepted the trade but basically agreed with me right? And you went as far as to say that, "if Conley had a BR deal" you would have rejected it, IN FAVOR OF THE TEAM TRADING FOR CONLEY?

I get that Conley is good. And I get that he is under-appreciated and underrated. But that doesn't matter. What matters is value. John Wall has way more value than Conley. Especially when you look at the contracts and then remember that the cap will be 90 million when Conley is an unrestricted free agent and the team trading for him will not have his BR's. 

I also like how the reason Burke has become relevant again is because a player tore his ACL and is done for a considerable amount of time. Like, if that is what it takes for a player to possibly be good, he probably isn't good. If he wasn't good enough to start with Exum there, why would he be good enough when Exum comes back? 

I just think you guys are overrating Burke and Zeller. Or you just are not seeing the whole picture on them. That both of them should be on the bench. And that 2 of them makes up the difference between Wall's and Conley's respective values.


I mean, I think Parsons and Randle is a lot better trade for Wall than this one and I'd probably reject it. 

Its just baffling to me.

[Keith Van Horn]

Aug 11, 2015 19:55:19 GMT -5 John Stockton said:

Keith Van Horn i feel like youre making your decision as if zeller and burke literally have zero value here. they're both promising young prospects on great contracts that have potential to be starters for years to come. if you believe that either of those players have reached their ceiling, i would tell you to GTFO. additionally, i would like to see your tier 1 and tier 2 of top pgs in the league, because im not sure what kind of ranking system youre using without conley as one of the top pgs in the league. looking solely at his numbers can be deceiving bc he does so many things that does not show up in stat sheets that john wall isnt capable of right now.

everyone has their opinions but i really think you're underselling conley/zeller/burke here. this trade also fits into detroit's future plans for this season and onwards. i feel like you would also have to count in the value he would get from improving his draft pick with this trade. with the recent slide his team has been on, it's clear stan wants to take his team in a different direction.

Dont worry bud, if I was raping someone this bad in a trade, I'd fight to the death for it to be accepted.

[Reggie Miller]

Aug 11, 2015 23:38:09 GMT -5 Keith Van Horn said:

Aug 10, 2015 19:36:44 GMT -5 Reggie Miller said:

I get your point..

Well Wall is one of my fav players up to date... he has the potential to be one great PG and already an all star.. yes Conley is a very good PG and on his prime yet he's not yet an all star.. He also has Gasol and Randolph to help him while Wall only have Beal but not always since he always gets injured..


Don't underestimate Burke and Zeller yet.. cause they have potential specially Burke now that Exum will not play this year.. Don't underestimate Conley also as I said he have Gasol that is pretty good on assist so Conley doesn't average that much on assisting.. Wizards is a Wall team while Grizz is a Gasol,Dolph and Conley team..

You are aware you accepted the trade but basically agreed with me right? And you went as far as to say that, "if Conley had a BR deal" you would have rejected it, IN FAVOR OF THE TEAM TRADING FOR CONLEY?

I get that Conley is good. And I get that he is under-appreciated and underrated. But that doesn't matter. What matters is value. John Wall has way more value than Conley. Especially when you look at the contracts and then remember that the cap will be 90 million when Conley is an unrestricted free agent and the team trading for him will not have his BR's. 

I also like how the reason Burke has become relevant again is because a player tore his ACL and is done for a considerable amount of time. Like, if that is what it takes for a player to possibly be good, he probably isn't good. If he wasn't good enough to start with Exum there, why would he be good enough when Exum comes back? 

I just think you guys are overrating Burke and Zeller. Or you just are not seeing the whole picture on them. That both of them should be on the bench. And that 2 of them makes up the difference between Wall's and Conley's respective values.


I mean, I think Parsons and Randle is a lot better trade for Wall than this one and I'd probably reject it. 

Its just baffling to me.

I respect your decision too that's why I see what your point is..

[Steve Jobs]

Making a decision was hard for me here... Too difficult to figure out what I actually think about the trade. But at the end of the day, I'm gonna go with my gut and say that John Wall should be worth more.

Reject.

[Donald Trump]

I reject too, same reason as others, John Wall reached franchise player level and Conley + medium potential prospects are not enough in my opinion..

[Stan Van Gundy]

I think this is reject weew.

[Blake Bowman]

Reject from me too.