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Post by Alonzo Mourning on Aug 14, 2015 1:00:38 GMT -5
Chicago Bulls send:65 Wesley Matthews $6,107,640 Houston Rockets send:49 Bojan Bogdanovic $3,278,000 $3,425,510 $3,573,020 $4,466,275
'15 2nd '16 2nd I accept. I will have a solid shooting guard starter. This will help me to contend in the West.
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Post by Alonzo Mourning on Aug 14, 2015 1:12:27 GMT -5
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Post by Alonzo Mourning on Aug 14, 2015 1:14:00 GMT -5
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Paul Pierce
Chicago Bulls
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Post by Paul Pierce on Aug 14, 2015 9:51:39 GMT -5
There is almost no chance that I can resign Matthews next year. So I get a young guy on a 4 year deal and 2 2nd rounders
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Aug 14, 2015 10:01:42 GMT -5
Like this trade for both sides.
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Post by Colin Loftin on Aug 14, 2015 10:02:53 GMT -5
Why is there no chance to resign Matthews? You have probably close to 40 mil in space next year?
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Paul Pierce
Chicago Bulls
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Post by Paul Pierce on Aug 14, 2015 10:10:36 GMT -5
Colin, why would Matthews want to sign with a bum ass team with one quality player so far. He would much rather go to a team ready to contend then a rebuild team
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Aug 14, 2015 10:13:30 GMT -5
Colin, why would Matthews want to sign with a bum ass team with one quality player so far. He would much rather go to a team ready to contend then a rebuild team Yeah, when you dismantle your team as Paul has throughout the season, you're basically telling your upcoming free agents to go somewhere else.
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Post by Colin Loftin on Aug 14, 2015 10:15:14 GMT -5
Ah yes good point. Haha I guess I'm used to playing 2k where the dollar is the only thing that matters :)
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Post by Blake Bowman on Aug 14, 2015 14:08:22 GMT -5
Accept, solid trade.
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Paul Pierce
Chicago Bulls
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Post by Paul Pierce on Aug 14, 2015 17:33:27 GMT -5
All i need is Tobias Harris, Dante Exum, And that potential top 5 pick, then ill have room to get a guy im targeting
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Post by John Stockton on Aug 14, 2015 18:59:10 GMT -5
i think this is underselling matthews by quite a bit but i accept
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Post by Alonzo Mourning on Aug 14, 2015 19:06:08 GMT -5
2 accepts! one more.
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Paul Pierce
Chicago Bulls
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Post by Paul Pierce on Aug 14, 2015 19:24:09 GMT -5
i think this is underselling matthews by quite a bit but i accept I tried to get more trust me. after a week i decided to do this deal, i was offered a better deal from another team. But due to salaries i had to put zeller in the deal and i couldn't do that. If i didn't trade Wes than id essentially be getting nothing for him. Lastly, By doing this trade i will increase the chances of getting a top 5 pick and im gonna land one of the two players i want
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Aug 14, 2015 20:22:58 GMT -5
Honestly, I'm just not a fan of this deal. Matthews signed with the Mavs in real life even though they have practically 0 chance of being contenders this year, so I don't think saying he wouldn't sign with you because you're not very good is a valid argument for trading Matthews for pennies on the dollar. I feel like it sets a bad precedent for the kind of value teams should expect to give up in order to acquire good players on expiring deals up until our 4th year when Bird Rights officially kick in.
Maybe you guys will disagree with me here... I think it'd be one thing to trade him for this to a team that clearly just needed him on loan until the end of the year while chasing a title: if they for sure have no intentions of keeping him as well, then Matthews goes back on the open market with no obstacles and it's no worse off - just getting whatever small amount of value you can out of a player that neither team intends to keep. In that instance, I don't think any of us would expect a loan for Matthews to command a higher price tag than this.
But I don't feel like that's the case here. Houston has plenty of cap space, and certainly the need at SG as well. To me, Matthews has a very high chance of ending up back with Houston next season, especially if the Rockets go deep in the playoffs, because the cap space and position needs are a great fit for him.
I think Houston getting their foot in the door to sign a high end 3-and-D wing to a long term deal for the price of Bogdanovic and 2 2nd round picks just feels terribly wrong to me.
I'm gonna reject. I don't expect anyone else in the TC to follow suit, but I just think this is a bit too lopsided for me.
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Post by Tony Stark on Aug 14, 2015 22:29:11 GMT -5
Honestly, I'm just not a fan of this deal. Matthews signed with the Mavs in real life even though they have practically 0 chance of being contenders this year, so I don't think saying he wouldn't sign with you because you're not very good is a valid argument for trading Matthews for pennies on the dollar. I feel like it sets a bad precedent for the kind of value teams should expect to give up in order to acquire good players on expiring deals up until our 4th year when Bird Rights officially kick in. Maybe you guys will disagree with me here... I think it'd be one thing to trade him for this to a team that clearly just needed him on loan until the end of the year while chasing a title: if they for sure have no intentions of keeping him as well, then Matthews goes back on the open market with no obstacles and it's no worse off - just getting whatever small amount of value you can out of a player that neither team intends to keep. In that instance, I don't think any of us would expect a loan for Matthews to command a higher price tag than this. But I don't feel like that's the case here. Houston has plenty of cap space, and certainly the need at SG as well. To me, Matthews has a very high chance of ending up back with Houston next season, especially if the Rockets go deep in the playoffs, because the cap space and position needs are a great fit for him. I think Houston getting their foot in the door to sign a high end 3-and-D wing to a long term deal for the price of Bogdanovic and 2 2nd round picks just feels terribly wrong to me. I'm gonna reject. I don't expect anyone else in the TC to follow suit, but I just think this is a bit too lopsided for me. Matthews decided to sign with Dallas because he certainly thought that they would be contending with Deandre. But we all know what happened, and Matthews just wanted to be a man of his word despite of the fiasco that happened.
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Aug 14, 2015 22:42:28 GMT -5
Cuban offered him the option in earnest to pursue other deals after DeAndre left. His reputation wouldn't have been on the line at all if he'd tried to go somewhere else.
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Post by Alonzo Mourning on Aug 15, 2015 4:13:44 GMT -5
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Reggie Miller
Indiana Pacers
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Post by Reggie Miller on Aug 15, 2015 8:58:18 GMT -5
If Matthews isn't an expiring contract, I would not accept this.. Since the Bulls are tanking and do not want to resign WM then getting 2 2nd rd picks and Bojan is good to me... I accept
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Post by Alonzo Mourning on Aug 15, 2015 9:30:53 GMT -5
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Aug 15, 2015 9:55:10 GMT -5
If Matthews isn't an expiring contract, I would not accept this.. Since the Bulls are tanking and do not want to resign WM then getting 2 2nd rd picks and Bojan is good to me... I accept What about if this trade turns into Matthews signing long term for Houston? Do you still think it's fair that all he had to give up to make it happen was three 2nd rounders? I think the Bulls being in their position it's fair to say that the value they got is appropriate. But Houston, again, has the cap space and positional need to want Matthews around long term. I think it should have been on Chicago to force the issue there, and make sure that a team that could want to hold on to a player as good as Matthews isn't trading for him at the same price tag being offered to a team that for sure doesnt intend to keep him.
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Aug 15, 2015 10:02:12 GMT -5
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Reggie Miller
Indiana Pacers
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Post by Reggie Miller on Aug 15, 2015 18:46:52 GMT -5
If Matthews isn't an expiring contract, I would not accept this.. Since the Bulls are tanking and do not want to resign WM then getting 2 2nd rd picks and Bojan is good to me... I accept What about if this trade turns into Matthews signing long term for Houston? Do you still think it's fair that all he had to give up to make it happen was three 2nd rounders? I think the Bulls being in their position it's fair to say that the value they got is appropriate. But Houston, again, has the cap space and positional need to want Matthews around long term. I think it should have been on Chicago to force the issue there, and make sure that a team that could want to hold on to a player as good as Matthews isn't trading for him at the same price tag being offered to a team that for sure doesnt intend to keep him. I get your point but the Bulls Gm stated that he doesn't intends to sign Matthews.. Like on the real NBA when a team doesn't like a certain player and they wanted to trade him.. Hibbert for example they will be desperate at having anything just to trade him.,. The Pacers only got a 2nd rd pick for Hibbert.. on this case he will have a good player with a long term contract and a two future 2nd rd picks.. If he include a first rd pick that would be fair??
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Aug 15, 2015 18:49:55 GMT -5
What about if this trade turns into Matthews signing long term for Houston? Do you still think it's fair that all he had to give up to make it happen was three 2nd rounders? I think the Bulls being in their position it's fair to say that the value they got is appropriate. But Houston, again, has the cap space and positional need to want Matthews around long term. I think it should have been on Chicago to force the issue there, and make sure that a team that could want to hold on to a player as good as Matthews isn't trading for him at the same price tag being offered to a team that for sure doesnt intend to keep him. I get your point but the Bulls Gm stated that he doesn't intends to sign Matthews.. Like on the real NBA when a team doesn't like a certain player and they wanted to trade him.. Hibbert for example they will be desperate at having anything just to trade him.,. The Pacers only got a 2nd rd pick for Hibbert.. on this case he will have a good player with a long term contract and a two future 2nd rd picks.. If he include a first rd pick that would be fair?? I agree with this. I also would like to point out that Wesley Matthews will probably be making his decisions in FA based on money and playing time and contending. 30 games with a team doesn't give them a loyalty bonus, or shouldn't.
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Aug 15, 2015 20:20:31 GMT -5
Reggie, it would be considerably more fair with a first, yes. 2nd round picks are largely worthless, especially in a sim league. Even in real life, the Pacers trading Hibbert for a 2nd rounder was the equivalent of giving him away - Hibbert is more or less on his way out of the league if he doesn't have a decent year with the Lakers and both sides know it.
Knowing how I (and everyone else around here) values 2nd round picks, it's completely in line with that valuation to say that adding 2 more 2nd round picks to the 2nd that Hibbert commanded in exchange for Matthews, a player with significantly more value, in no way makes the trade more fair. Most average 2nd round players in this sim league barely receive playing time. The chances of Bojan (a 2nd rounder) and 2 2nd round picks getting significant playing time even for Chicago is minimal, and the trade value even more scarce. It's the chance-in-a-million 2nd round pick that skews the value here, but we can't rely on that when valuing a 2nd round pick for trade purposes. To me this trade is the equivalent of loading up scraps on a plate and asking to trade it for a full entree.
And Chicago isn't really trying to give Matthews away because they don't value his skills, like Indiana did with Hibbert, they just don't have use for him and don't think they could re-sign him, which to me doesn't scream "I guess I have to trade him for any pile of crap I get because I'm not going to keep him." I know other teams are interested in him, because I personally was willing to offer more value than he's getting here, so it's not out of the question to say that Chicago is selling Matthews for much cheaper than they could have gotten for him if Paul had been patient. Also, I can't stress this enough: I hope you won't take what I just said the wrong way - I'm not opposed to this trade because I want Matthews, I'm opposed to this trade because it's not fair value even for an expiring player that someone doesn't intend to keep. In other words, I don't like the trade because even disregarding my own offers this value is bogus.
Again, this isn't about me caring so much that Chicago is trading Matthews for next to nothing, it's about setting bad precedents for the league about what value teams should expect to get for expiring players without Bird Rights. The appreciation involved in jumping from Matthews to a high end Center like Marc Gasol would suggest that a team could easily point at this trade as evidence to back their argument that Gasol might only be worth roughly a 1st and a 2nd round pick as an expiring, but everyone here knows that's not appropriate value. Having a chance to re-sign your own good, expiring player and then still losing that player in free agency is still worth more, here and in real life, than a small collection of mediocre-at-best players and low value picks that you only accept because you don't want to lose a player for nothing.
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Aug 15, 2015 20:49:47 GMT -5
Reggie, it would be considerably more fair with a first, yes. 2nd round picks are largely worthless, especially in a sim league. Even in real life, the Pacers trading Hibbert for a 2nd rounder was the equivalent of giving him away - Hibbert is more or less on his way out of the league if he doesn't have a decent year with the Lakers and both sides know it. Knowing how I (and everyone else around here) values 2nd round picks, it's completely in line with that valuation to say that adding 2 more 2nd round picks to the 2nd that Hibbert commanded in exchange for Matthews, a player with significantly more value, in no way makes the trade more fair. Most average 2nd round players in this sim league barely receive playing time. The chances of Bojan (a 2nd rounder) and 2 2nd round picks getting significant playing time even for Chicago is minimal, and the trade value even more scarce. It's the chance-in-a-million 2nd round pick that skews the value here, but we can't rely on that when valuing a 2nd round pick for trade purposes. To me this trade is the equivalent of loading up scraps on a plate and asking to trade it for a full entree. And Chicago isn't really trying to give Matthews away because they don't value his skills, like Indiana did with Hibbert, they just don't have use for him and don't think they could re-sign him, which to me doesn't scream "I guess I have to trade him for any pile of crap I get because I'm not going to keep him." I know other teams are interested in him, because I personally was willing to offer more value than he's getting here, so it's not out of the question to say that Chicago is selling Matthews for much cheaper than they could have gotten for him if Paul had been patient. Also, I can't stress this enough: I hope you won't take what I just said the wrong way - I'm not opposed to this trade because I want Matthews, I'm opposed to this trade because it's not fair value even for an expiring player that someone doesn't intend to keep. In other words, I don't like the trade because even disregarding my own offers this value is bogus. Again, this isn't about me caring so much that Chicago is trading Matthews for next to nothing, it's about setting bad precedents for the league about what value teams should expect to get for expiring players without Bird Rights. The appreciation involved in jumping from Matthews to a high end Center like Marc Gasol would suggest that a team could easily point at this trade as evidence to back their argument that Gasol might only be worth roughly a 1st and a 2nd round pick as an expiring, but everyone here knows that's not appropriate value. Having a chance to re-sign your own good, expiring player and then still losing that player in free agency is still worth more, here and in real life, than a small collection of mediocre-at-best players and low value picks that you only accept because you don't want to lose a player for nothing. If I wasn't going to win a championship, and I had Gasol and someone offered me that, I would take it. I think you value expiring players too much :) But neither of us are "right" it is the market that is right, eh. It is a common tactic to trade a guy you won't be resigning... Asik, Hibbert, Chris Paul, and there have been many different packages they can get. Why should Houston have to give up a 1st for 30 games of Wesley Matthews? That seems dumb to me. In Pinoy Hoops I traded Marc Gasol for Brook Lopez and a late 1st, and then turned brook into another late 1st. *shrugs*, and no one would offer more. Maybe you think Gasol and Wesley Matthews should be worth more, but I couldn't find a person that will pay what you think they are worth :)
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Post by Alonzo Mourning on Aug 15, 2015 20:57:05 GMT -5
What about if this trade turns into Matthews signing long term for Houston? Do you still think it's fair that all he had to give up to make it happen was three 2nd rounders? I think the Bulls being in their position it's fair to say that the value they got is appropriate. But Houston, again, has the cap space and positional need to want Matthews around long term. I think it should have been on Chicago to force the issue there, and make sure that a team that could want to hold on to a player as good as Matthews isn't trading for him at the same price tag being offered to a team that for sure doesnt intend to keep him. I get your point but the Bulls Gm stated that he doesn't intends to sign Matthews.. Like on the real NBA when a team doesn't like a certain player and they wanted to trade him.. Hibbert for example they will be desperate at having anything just to trade him.,. The Pacers only got a 2nd rd pick for Hibbert.. on this case he will have a good player with a long term contract and a two future 2nd rd picks.. If he include a first rd pick that would be fair?? Very well said
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Aug 15, 2015 21:06:33 GMT -5
If I wasn't going to win a championship, and I had Gasol and someone offered me that, I would take it. I think you value expiring players too much :) But neither of us are "right" it is the market that is right, eh. It is a common tactic to trade a guy you won't be resigning... Asik, Hibbert, Chris Paul, and there have been many different packages they can get. Why should Houston have to give up a 1st for 30 games of Wesley Matthews? That seems dumb to me. In Pinoy Hoops I traded Marc Gasol for Brook Lopez and a late 1st, and then turned brook into another late 1st. *shrugs*, and no one would offer more. Maybe you think Gasol and Wesley Matthews should be worth more, but I couldn't find a person that will pay what you think they are worth :) "Wesley Matthews will probably be making his decisions in FA based on money and playing time and contending" I meant to respond to that statement before I posted the last comment but forgot. Like I said: Houston has the money, has the need, has the playing time, has the contending team... All the most important factors line up. And on top of that, playing 30 games and making it into the playoffs is one of the only ways to inspire a loyalty factor to help a player to want to stay with a team after their deal expires. Especially, like I said, if Houston can make a deep run once the playoffs get here. I'm not valuing expiring players too much... like you said, the Market decides their value. But like I said, the market is decidedly not this low for Matthews - I know because I offered more. And if I choose to move Gasol for a package like that, it will be because of other external factors, money among them. When people like Reggie are throwing good players and multiple first rounders around for Paul Millsap, we're really going to turn around and say that another good player in Matthews is only worth 3 2nd rounders? The only people here who have a chance to influence the market, and make sure people aren't offering or accepting complete lowballs just because a player is expiring, is the Trade Committee. It's kind of our duty to step in and say "it doesn't matter if Matthews is gone next season, nobody should be able to grab him and get their foot in the door for keeping him long-term without giving up a single thing of actual value.
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Aug 15, 2015 21:11:49 GMT -5
Also, Brook Lopez is a great basketball player. Brook Lopez and a 1st is very fair value for Gasol. The value that this league has promoted for expirings in every move since the Millsap trade is more along the lines that an expiring like Gasol is barely worth two role players. I just want to fight for a more reasonable valuation of good expiring players because I think the precedents we're setting for the value you can get away with offering for them are hugely flawed.
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Post by Alonzo Mourning on Aug 16, 2015 5:22:06 GMT -5
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