DET - TOR

[Brian Scalabrine]

Ben Wallace

TOR sends:

'24 TOR 1st, unprotected

DET sends:

Pick 17

[Brian Scalabrine]

I accept, obviously.

Really going ham this draft. I know I'm at 20 as well, and plan to at draft both picks. They say it's a week draft, but I see some good upside on guys that could be career starters, even fringe all-star guys or future all-defense players.

Curious if others agree with me--but I think this draft is mixed up more than weak. A lot of guys in the middle have upside, and I think this will be one of those drafts where the best players that come out of it will be found outside the top ten... Luckily I drafted the IRL 11 and 12 picks, and now I'm in a spot to add two more to the stable of high-floor young talent that I'm going to sell future FAs on. If I'm right, putting future assets into this draft like my '24 pick and the WAS 1st is simply getting quality cost controlled players at clearance prices.

[Ben Wallace]

Accept

I actually more or less agree with Brian's assessment of this draft but one of my goals was to leverage one of my picks into future draft capital. 2024 is a ways away but my first trade back in D720 back in 2017 was to trade for a 2020 pick that turned into #4 this year so who knows.

[Nino Brown]

Sorry but I don’t understand trading a 2020 first for a first 4 entire years from now, Toronto has multiple picks in between now and 2024. They’re also a really well run organization so the chances of that pick being equal to or better than what Detroit is giving up is slim, I’ll defer to others before I vote, but I don’t understand the logic here, even if Detroit doesn’t like this draft, I’m sure he would’ve gotten offers if he put the pick on the TB.

[Shaq O'Neal]

Nov 26, 2020 19:48:31 GMT -5 Nino Brown said:

Sorry but I don’t understand trading a 2020 first for a first 4 entire years from now, Toronto has multiple picks in between now and 2024. They’re also a really well run organization so the chances of that pick being equal to or better than what Detroit is giving up is slim, I’ll defer to others before I vote, but I don’t understand the logic here, even if Detroit doesn’t like this draft, I’m sure he would’ve gotten offers if he put the pick on the TB.

Besides swap options that is the only tradeable pick Toronto has.Also this is a a risk Ben obviously understands that it could be a late first but he probably likes the upside of the pick enough since it is unprotected to do it.Trading pick 17 with such a risk is not franchise ruining in any way

[Yeezy]

Approve, picks always seem better on draft day...

[billy]

Sure

[Nino Brown]

Nov 26, 2020 21:33:14 GMT -5 Shaq O'Neal said:

Nov 26, 2020 19:48:31 GMT -5 Nino Brown said:

Sorry but I don’t understand trading a 2020 first for a first 4 entire years from now, Toronto has multiple picks in between now and 2024. They’re also a really well run organization so the chances of that pick being equal to or better than what Detroit is giving up is slim, I’ll defer to others before I vote, but I don’t understand the logic here, even if Detroit doesn’t like this draft, I’m sure he would’ve gotten offers if he put the pick on the TB.

Besides swap options that is the only tradeable pick Toronto has.Also this is a a risk Ben obviously understands that it could be a late first but he probably likes the upside of the pick enough since it is unprotected to do it.Trading pick 17 with such a risk is not franchise ruining in any way

It’s not, he could trade next years first considering he had multiple firsts this year. If I’m not mistaken, the rule is, you can trade consecutive firsts, so as long as you have a first round pick in general. Toronto has had multiple which means they can trade their first in 2021.

[Shaq O'Neal]

Nov 26, 2020 23:48:40 GMT -5 Nino Brown said:

Nov 26, 2020 21:33:14 GMT -5 Shaq O'Neal said:

Besides swap options that is the only tradeable pick Toronto has.Also this is a a risk Ben obviously understands that it could be a late first but he probably likes the upside of the pick enough since it is unprotected to do it.Trading pick 17 with such a risk is not franchise ruining in any way

It’s not, he could trade next years first considering he had multiple firsts this year. If I’m not mistaken, the rule is, you can trade consecutive firsts, so as long as you have a first round pick in general. Toronto has had multiple which means they can trade their first in 2021.

Stepien Rule prohibits that since TOR does not own their 2022 1st

[Brian Scalabrine]

Nov 26, 2020 23:48:40 GMT -5 Nino Brown said:

Nov 26, 2020 21:33:14 GMT -5 Shaq O'Neal said:

Besides swap options that is the only tradeable pick Toronto has.Also this is a a risk Ben obviously understands that it could be a late first but he probably likes the upside of the pick enough since it is unprotected to do it.Trading pick 17 with such a risk is not franchise ruining in any way

It’s not, he could trade next years first considering he had multiple firsts this year. If I’m not mistaken, the rule is, you can trade consecutive firsts, so as long as you have a first round pick in general. Toronto has had multiple which means they can trade their first in 2021.

But why would I trade the 1st pick in 2021 for the 17th pick in 2020?

[Shaq O'Neal]

Nov 27, 2020 1:56:09 GMT -5 Brian Scalabrine said:

Nov 26, 2020 23:48:40 GMT -5 Nino Brown said:

It’s not, he could trade next years first considering he had multiple firsts this year. If I’m not mistaken, the rule is, you can trade consecutive firsts, so as long as you have a first round pick in general. Toronto has had multiple which means they can trade their first in 2021.

But why would I trade the 1st pick in 2021 for the 17th pick in 2020?

More like the 5th pick in 2021 from the team with the worst record in 2021

[Jackie Kong]

while I don't agree this is rejectable I do think there is a problem when GMs post a draft 'day' deal and immediate make a pick without knowing if the deal will happen. Partially because some of these deals might not be as good but how do you explain that you want to reject a trade after the pick was made? lol.

Sort of feel like most of it would be fixed if you have to pick when you are on the clock rather being able to trade it when there is 1 hour left or less in the clock. That to me is just putting unfair pressure on the TC to accept whatever.

[Theodore Duncan]

Nov 27, 2020 2:49:49 GMT -5 Jackie Kong said:

while I don't agree this is rejectable I do think there is a problem when GMs post a draft 'day' deal and immediate make a pick without knowing if the deal will happen. Partially because some of these deals might not be as good but how do you explain that you want to reject a trade after the pick was made? lol.

Sort of feel like most of it would be fixed if you have to pick when you are on the clock rather being able to trade it when there is 1 hour left or less in the clock. That to me is just putting unfair pressure on the TC to accept whatever.

Agree, if TC has not accepted the trade before the clock runs out, I think the original pick owner should just make the pick for a player the other party wants. 

If for some reason the trade gets rejected, well tough luck. Then you drafted the player. You can still try to work out a new trade for the draft rights afterwards before the pick is signed to a contract

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2020 3:45:42 GMT -5 Theodore Duncan said:

Nov 27, 2020 2:49:49 GMT -5 Jackie Kong said:

while I don't agree this is rejectable I do think there is a problem when GMs post a draft 'day' deal and immediate make a pick without knowing if the deal will happen. Partially because some of these deals might not be as good but how do you explain that you want to reject a trade after the pick was made? lol.

Sort of feel like most of it would be fixed if you have to pick when you are on the clock rather being able to trade it when there is 1 hour left or less in the clock. That to me is just putting unfair pressure on the TC to accept whatever.

Agree, if TC has not accepted the trade before the clock runs out, I think the original pick owner should just make the pick for a player the other party wants. 

If for some reason the trade gets rejected, well tough luck. Then you drafted the player. You can still try to work out a new trade for the draft rights afterwards before the pick is signed to a contract

I agree with this, but the TC takes their sweet time when making votes, and if we all waited for enough votes from the TC the Draft would be over with.

You guys Accepted a trade from me for my 2024 1st for pick #23 from Cleveland without even batting an eye. So what's wrong with this for #17

[Theodore Duncan]

Yeah, some TC members are bit slower to react. But now they were not even tagged and there was still 2 accepts within 5 hours, so it's not too bad normally. But if you post a trade for pick with only couple of hours left in the clock then I think the teams making the trade need to accept a bit of a risk. And the original team will just have to pick the target player with uncertainty if the trade is accepted or not.

During draft it's always been more easy anyways. It has to be a really bad trade to get rejected

[Nino Brown]

Nov 27, 2020 5:56:40 GMT -5 @joker said:

Nov 27, 2020 3:45:42 GMT -5 Theodore Duncan said:

Agree, if TC has not accepted the trade before the clock runs out, I think the original pick owner should just make the pick for a player the other party wants. 

If for some reason the trade gets rejected, well tough luck. Then you drafted the player. You can still try to work out a new trade for the draft rights afterwards before the pick is signed to a contract

I agree with this, but the TC takes their sweet time when making votes, and if we all waited for enough votes from the TC the Draft would be over with.

You guys Accepted a trade from me for my 2024 1st for pick #23 from Cleveland without even batting an eye. So what's wrong with this for #17

that’s because there were other things included in the deal.

[Nino Brown]

Nov 27, 2020 1:56:09 GMT -5 Brian Scalabrine said:

Nov 26, 2020 23:48:40 GMT -5 Nino Brown said:

It’s not, he could trade next years first considering he had multiple firsts this year. If I’m not mistaken, the rule is, you can trade consecutive firsts, so as long as you have a first round pick in general. Toronto has had multiple which means they can trade their first in 2021.

But why would I trade the 1st pick in 2021 for the 17th pick in 2020?

your pick isn’t going to be #1, don’t be disingenuous. I’m just saying in 2024 you could literally have the last pick in the draft, and I personally don’t see the point of trading for a pick 4 years from now when the team you’re trading with has usable assets in the near future. It’s not that serious though, I just wanted to see if anybody else had an opinion, I could be tripping.

[billy]

I feel the exact opposite of you, Nino.

I dont know if I would call Toronto a well-run team (sorry brian). He does this a lot where he blows shit up to make lots of Longshot picks in the draft. I've been there myself and it rarely works out.

When I saw this trade I immediately thought of that pick winning the lottery.

[Nino Brown]

Nov 27, 2020 7:25:34 GMT -5 billy said:

I feel the exact opposite of you, Nino.

I dont know if I would call Toronto a well-run team (sorry brian). He does this a lot where he blows shit up to make lots of Longshot picks in the draft. I've been there myself and it rarely works out.

When I saw this trade I immediately thought of that pick winning the lottery.

well damn. Idk I just found myself impressed with how quickly he was able to rebuild, and compete, having assembled that amount of talent, but I also haven’t been here a long time so.

[Jackie Kong]

Nov 27, 2020 3:45:42 GMT -5 Theodore Duncan said:

Agree, if TC has not accepted the trade before the clock runs out, I think the original pick owner should just make the pick for a player the other party wants. 

If for some reason the trade gets rejected, well tough luck. Then you drafted the player. You can still try to work out a new trade for the draft rights afterwards before the pick is signed to a contract

Something that I think could help at least a bit is to make only a period of time while you are on the clock available to make a trade. Personally, I would do it 1 hour but half clock could help as well even though half clock would mean 3 hours for 2nd round picks.

And sure there is a chance you miss that deadline (or your trade partner does) because you didn't see the other person picking but the same is true about possibly missing the pick entirely.

But the way I see it, if you are considering to trade the pick you keep a close look and this would force to have preliminary talks like you would see in real life so it is not all during the clock. And preliminary talks would also incentive the potential trade partner to keep an eye on the whole thing as well. And sure you don't see rejected trades in real life draft deals but they also have only a couple of minutes to make a pick.

[Brian Scalabrine]

I agree with Billy tbh.

And no, I'm not now against doing this trade--I decidedly am still happy about it because I'm very high on Achiuwa. The entire direction I decided on this year is extremely risky. It depends on FAs showing up. It has contingencies of course, and I think I'm a good GM in plenty of ways, but I look at this trade as a huge, huge risk. Even trading the WAS 22 pick was a huge risk (which looks smarter than it was when I executed the trade bc of the batshit trade Pete has pulled off now, which imo should be rejected)

But in a vaccum, anyone trading a non-lottery pick for a four years out unprotected first is is almost always a smart deal. Ben is smart to do this early in his rebuild on the heels of just taking 2 and 4.

Imagine that I strike out in FA in '21, or worse, sign horrible contracts. That '24 pick would look very spicy. No real NBA team with my roster would be trading unprotected future firsts for anything short of an established star on a long term deal.

[Brian Scalabrine]

That being said, Precious will be the GOAT, I'll win the draft next year, and then sign two top ten players and have formed a dynasty.

That's what I'm trying to do here, but the odds are against me. I'm just very brave.