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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 9, 2015 10:30:27 GMT -5
Dallas Receives:
PG Ricky Rubio 65 $12,700,000/$13,400,000/$14,100,000/$14,800,000
C Spencer Hawes 61 $5,543,725/$5,782,450/$6,021,175(TO)
PF J.J. Hickson 59 $5,613,500/1
PF Mike Scott 49 $3,333,333/$3,333,334
Draft Rights to Guillermo Hernangome (55th Overall Pick)
Total: $27,190,558
Utah Receives:
SG Kobe "Black Mamba" Bryant 71 $25,000,000/1
2018 2nd (Mavs)
2019 2nd (Mavs)
2017 2nd (Mavs)
Total: $25,000,000
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 9, 2015 10:30:37 GMT -5
I accept and will post my rational shortly.
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 9, 2015 12:36:40 GMT -5
My rational: I need to do something to keep my team out of mediocrity. In my opinion, if I don't do something then I will continue to stay in the middle of the pack. Originally I thought I could trade Paul George for a bunch of picks but no one gave me an offer that I liked enough to make the move.
With this deal I acquire Kobe Bryant who could help me contend along with Paul George. Obviously, the former possesses some risk but so does the latter. As a result, I am banking on a Kobe/George combo mirroring Jordan/Pippen OR they both suck and I can start rebuilding. Ricky Rubio constitutes the only piece that I feel like I am giving up, but I hate him and he's WAYYYY overpaid. The rest of the guys are bad contracts or JJ Hickson whose bird rights I do not own.
Basically, I view the trade like this:
Worst case scenario: I traded Ricky Rubio for 3 picks and about 23 M in cap space next year to help me rebuild after Paul George hits rock bottom.
Best case scenario: I traded Ricky Rubio for the Mamba and make a run this year in conjunction with 3 picks and about 23 M in cap space next year.
Nice trading with you Dallas and best of luck to Hawes, Rubio, Scott and and Hickson with the Mavs.
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billy
 Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Nov 9, 2015 12:41:38 GMT -5
No way Ricky Rubio will be rated lower than Kobe by the end of next season.
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 9, 2015 13:41:36 GMT -5
No way Ricky Rubio will be rated lower than Kobe by the end of next season. I agree but what's your point? |
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Nov 9, 2015 14:29:32 GMT -5
No way Ricky Rubio will be rated lower than Kobe by the end of next season. I agree but what's your point? How does this help you win at all? Ricky Rubio will have a higher rating than Kobe before our season is halfway over. |
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Nov 9, 2015 14:30:11 GMT -5
Kobe is a stock watch thread away from being a 64.
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 9, 2015 14:44:45 GMT -5
Did you read what I wrote?
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Nov 9, 2015 15:19:16 GMT -5
Did you read what I wrote? Yeah I did. Do you really think trading Rubio for expiring and some 2nds is the best way to rebuild? |
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 9, 2015 16:16:55 GMT -5
Did you read what I wrote? Yeah I did. Do you really think trading Rubio for expiring and some 2nds is the best way to rebuild? I don't think it is the best per say, but I need to do something. Honestly, I am not quiet ready to put a fork in Kobe because I saw him play the first game and think he can still be pretty good for one year. In all honestly, even if Kobe falls flat on his face, I think it's one of those situations where I need to do something, anything really, to open up new possibilities. I do not want to gamble trading Paul George for crap, however, so I picked my second best asset. Right now, I am doomed for mediocrity and I think I can make the playoffs this year and stink really bad the next. If anyone wants to reject this trade, fine, go ahead. I will not quit or anything, but I would like for you anyone who rejects this trade to tell me what they think I should do. Other than very silly talks about trading Paul George for James Harden, no one will offer me the kind of package I want for George and I have been the Jazzs GM for a few months now. |
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Steve Jobs
 Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Nov 9, 2015 22:56:19 GMT -5
Obviously Dallas still needs to accept before I can vote, but I'm inclined to agree with Billy here. Feeling urgency to make a move shouldn't run in the same vein as making a bad one. You've got a lot of high-potential young guys that still have room to grow into better role players at worst, and Rubio is looking like he's in the middle of a break out season as well as finally having the talent around him to rack up assists. In one more year, you'll have max contract level cap space without really losing any players of note. The Jazz chance to shine in the future is going to be built on the foundation of showing patience this year and jumping on good opportunities when they arise, not by dumping cap space and trying to make a move now.
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Reggie Miller
 Indiana Pacers
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Post by Reggie Miller on Nov 10, 2015 0:23:06 GMT -5
I think this trade could work wonders with Darth.. Kobe still has some tank left after all he's an expiring contract and I do agree that this way He can contend this year if not atleast he will have some assets and cap space next season,. I'm just waiting for the Dallas to accept this,.
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Nov 10, 2015 1:49:10 GMT -5
His starting 5 (presumably) goes from
(65) Ricky Rubio - (62) Patty Mills - (75) Paul George - (63) Marcus Morris - (61) Kelly Olynyk
to
(62) Patty Mills - (71?) Kobe Bryant - (75) Paul George - (63) Marcus Morris - (61) Kelly Olynyk
So yeah, there's a noticeable upgrade there if Kobe doesn't get stock-watched into D720blivion. But I think considering Rubio probably gets an upgrade and Kobe gets a down grade, at worst it's a wash in ratings - by that, I mean either one could be on top and the amount of difference between the two probably wouldn't make a significant difference to his teams performance. On top of that, he's taking on significant salary for this year, also requiring him to jettison significant front court bench depth to match the salaries, which will result in (most likely) a relevant decrease in 2nd unit performance that may or may not counterbalance any starting line up improvements.
Once the year is up Kobe's salary is off the books and the Jazz will be hoping to use their 2x max cap space to sign what will most likely amount to at least one player of Rubio's caliber coming in on a max contract (at least 25% of 90M) instead of a 13.4M salary... the difference between those two salaries meaning if he had instead just found someone to take the bad contracts he included in the above trade without including Rubio, he could easily sign another useful player to his squad after adding a true max contract guy into the mix (like Kevin Love ;) ).
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Post by Luke Walton on Nov 10, 2015 2:12:31 GMT -5
I accept!
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Reggie Miller
Indiana Pacers
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Post by Reggie Miller on Nov 10, 2015 2:18:06 GMT -5
with the Dallas response, my vote is yes.. I accept
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Post by John Stockton on Nov 10, 2015 2:36:21 GMT -5
Sorry, Vlade, but not finding a move that you don't like isn't an excuse to make a bad one. This doesn't help your team in the short-term and definitely not long term. I reject.
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Nov 10, 2015 2:45:06 GMT -5
I'm going to reject as well.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Nov 10, 2015 2:45:45 GMT -5
Just... Don't get rid of a guy who is just breaking out for a year of Kobe. I guess there's the long term cap relief but I'd like to see Utah get more for what they're giving up, so I'm going to reject.
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Nov 10, 2015 2:48:12 GMT -5
Just... Don't get rid of a guy who is just breaking out for a year of Kobe. I guess there's the long term cap relief but I'd like to see Utah get more for what they're giving up, so I'm going to reject. Agreed... and I also think my earlier response laid out a pretty realistic explanation of why the "long term cap relief" isn't as much of a plus here as it might seem. |
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 10, 2015 9:36:34 GMT -5
Ha, whatever. I think Rubio sucks, always has and always will, but I can respect your decision. I do need to ask Steve, however, where the heck he gets the idea I can offer a max contract anytime in the next three years?
This team is cap handicapped, devoid of talent, and very mediocre. The trade committee made its decision and I am afraid I will pick 10th again next year. Seriously, I hope I do not lose interest when my biggest trade to date constitutes trading 2 2nds for Kyle Anderson.
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 10, 2015 9:54:30 GMT -5
Just... Don't get rid of a guy who is just breaking out for a year of Kobe. I guess there's the long term cap relief but I'd like to see Utah get more for what they're giving up, so I'm going to reject. Agreed... and I also think my earlier response laid out a pretty realistic explanation of why the "long term cap relief" isn't as much of a plus here as it might seem. You are the most full of crap person in this league! My cap situation is HORRIBLE, my totals for the next three years are 74 M, 68 M, 67 M, because I am paying 2 guys who aren't that good right now (Burke and Rubio) over 24 M. How am I suppose to sign anyone, including Kevin Love, without any cap space? Seriously man, at least LOOK at my cap situation before making sweeping generalizations because I need to GET RID rather than take on big expiring contracts. |
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 10, 2015 9:55:29 GMT -5
Sorry, Vlade, but not finding a move that you don't like isn't an excuse to make a bad one. This doesn't help your team in the short-term and definitely not long term. I reject. Stockton, I respect the heck out of you and think you are a great GM but it does help me in the long-term because it makes my 1st round draft pick a little more valuable. |
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Nov 10, 2015 10:22:43 GMT -5
Agreed... and I also think my earlier response laid out a pretty realistic explanation of why the "long term cap relief" isn't as much of a plus here as it might seem. You are the most full of crap person in this league! My cap situation is HORRIBLE, my totals for the next three years are 74 M, 68 M, 67 M, because I am paying 2 guys who aren't that good right now (Burke and Rubio) over 24 M. How am I suppose to sign anyone, including Kevin Love, without any cap space? Seriously man, at least LOOK at my cap situation before making sweeping generalizations because I need to GET RID rather than take on big expiring contracts. Your cap situation would be horrible if the salary cap was going to stick at 70 million, but since it skyrockets to 90+ million starting in 2016-2017, you'll have the means (with some nominal effort to open up 1-5M) to offer an entire max contract as well as having: - Ricky Rubio (probable 67 rating, 25 yo, salary roughly 9M below 16-17 max) - Paul George (75+, 25 yo, salary roughly 4M below 16-17 max) - Marcus Morris (possible 65 rating, 26, salary way, way, way (way, way, way) below 16-17 max) - Kelly Olynyk (probable 63+, 24, still on cheap rookie deal) - Kyle Anderson, Robert Covington (promising prospects still on rookie deals) - Alec Burks and Patty Mills (solid back up point guards, 60+, cheap deals based on 16-17 max) Please, if you're going to pointlessly disparage me for trying to help you, at least don't also be wrong about your assessment of the situation. |
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Nov 10, 2015 10:35:45 GMT -5
Keep Rubio and move Burks, one is getting better and the other blows.
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 10, 2015 10:37:39 GMT -5
You are the most full of crap person in this league! My cap situation is HORRIBLE, my totals for the next three years are 74 M, 68 M, 67 M, because I am paying 2 guys who aren't that good right now (Burke and Rubio) over 24 M. How am I suppose to sign anyone, including Kevin Love, without any cap space? Seriously man, at least LOOK at my cap situation before making sweeping generalizations because I need to GET RID rather than take on big expiring contracts. Your cap situation would be horrible if the salary cap was going to stick at 70 million, but since it skyrockets to 90+ million starting in 2016-2017, you'll have the means (with some nominal effort to open up 1-5M) to offer an entire max contract as well as having: - Ricky Rubio (probable 67 rating, 25 yo, salary roughly 9M below 16-17 max) - Paul George (75+, 25 yo, salary roughly 4M below 16-17 max) - Marcus Morris (possible 65 rating, 26, salary way, way, way (way, way, way) below 16-17 max) - Kelly Olynyk (probable 63+, 24, still on cheap rookie deal) - Kyle Anderson, Robert Covington (promising prospects still on rookie deals) - Alec Burks and Patty Mills (solid back up point guards, 60+, cheap deals based on 16-17 max) Please, if you're going to pointlessly disparage me for trying to help you, at least don't also be wrong about your assessment of the situation. #1: This is NO GRANTEE the cap will skyrocket. I keep telling people this. #2: Are you a professional lair or just really stupid? A. Ricky Rubio's salary = $12,700,000 $13,400,000 $14,100,000 $14,800,000 * 17 - 12.7 = 4.3 * 17 - 13.4 = 3.6 * 17 - 14.1 = 2.9 * 17 - 14.8 = 2.2 Thus, where do you get "salary roughly 9M below 16-17 max?" B. Just to save you the trouble, George received his big contract. C. While I don't think Ricky Rubio will ever receive a max contract, Morris certainly will not. Therefore, what's your point? D. Okay. E. Okay. F. How is 9 M a year a good price for a "solid back up point guard?" I don't know who you think you are, but can you at least use real facts instead of making shit up...please! If not, I think you should be removed from the trade committee. |
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 10, 2015 10:38:45 GMT -5
Keep Rubio and move Burks, one is getting better and the other blows. People have been saying this for years and lets be honest with ourselves: He's not Steve Nash on offense, as much as people want him to be, and he plays like Steven Nash on defense. Besides, who would want Burke? |
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Nov 10, 2015 11:05:56 GMT -5
Your cap situation would be horrible if the salary cap was going to stick at 70 million, but since it skyrockets to 90+ million starting in 2016-2017, you'll have the means (with some nominal effort to open up 1-5M) to offer an entire max contract as well as having: - Ricky Rubio (probable 67 rating, 25 yo, salary roughly 9M below 16-17 max) - Paul George (75+, 25 yo, salary roughly 4M below 16-17 max) - Marcus Morris (possible 65 rating, 26, salary way, way, way (way, way, way) below 16-17 max) - Kelly Olynyk (probable 63+, 24, still on cheap rookie deal) - Kyle Anderson, Robert Covington (promising prospects still on rookie deals) - Alec Burks and Patty Mills (solid back up point guards, 60+, cheap deals based on 16-17 max) Please, if you're going to pointlessly disparage me for trying to help you, at least don't also be wrong about your assessment of the situation. #1: This is NO GRANTEE the cap will skyrocket. I keep telling people this. #2: Are you a professional lair or just really stupid? A. Ricky Rubio's salary = $12,700,000 $13,400,000 $14,100,000 $14,800,000 * 17 - 12.7 = 4.3 * 17 - 13.4 = 3.6 * 17 - 14.1 = 2.9 * 17 - 14.8 = 2.2 Thus, where do you get "salary roughly 9M below 16-17 max?" B. Just to save you the trouble, George received his big contract. C. While I don't think Ricky Rubio will ever receive a max contract, Morris certainly will not. Therefore, what's your point? D. Okay. E. Okay. F. How is 9 M a year a good price for a "solid back up point guard?" I don't know who you think you are, but can you at least use real facts instead of making shit up...please! If not, I think you should be removed from the trade committee. 1) TV deal worth 2.6 Billion kicks in 16-17, Salary cap is tied to revenue, cap is guaranteed to spike but it's not yet certain where it will be. Could be more or less than 90M, but it will definitely go up drastically. 2) The max is a percentage of the cap. If/when the cap jumps to 90, 22.5M is the new 25%. 22.5-13.4=9.1 3) I'm mentioning distance below max to give you a sense of how many of your players are on good-acceptable deals compared to a maximum contract. I'm fully aware that most of your players have already signed their long term contracts and that was never my point. 6) 9M is a good price for a backup point guard because the cap is no longer 63.1M. When a maximum deal for young players (0-6 years exp) is over 22 million, 9 million is still a bargain for any decent player. 7) Vlade, I respect your right to direct criticisms and insults at me, but if I've proved myself worthy in Billy's eyes to hold a spot on every committee as well as a moderator position, I imagine your negative opinion of me is at least partially unfounded. Please drop the shitty attitude and we will not have any more problems. |
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 10, 2015 11:40:38 GMT -5
#1: This is NO GRANTEE the cap will skyrocket. I keep telling people this. #2: Are you a professional lair or just really stupid? A. Ricky Rubio's salary = $12,700,000 $13,400,000 $14,100,000 $14,800,000 * 17 - 12.7 = 4.3 * 17 - 13.4 = 3.6 * 17 - 14.1 = 2.9 * 17 - 14.8 = 2.2 Thus, where do you get "salary roughly 9M below 16-17 max?" B. Just to save you the trouble, George received his big contract. C. While I don't think Ricky Rubio will ever receive a max contract, Morris certainly will not. Therefore, what's your point? D. Okay. E. Okay. F. How is 9 M a year a good price for a "solid back up point guard?" I don't know who you think you are, but can you at least use real facts instead of making shit up...please! If not, I think you should be removed from the trade committee. 1) TV deal worth 2.6 Billion kicks in 16-17, Salary cap is tied to revenue, cap is guaranteed to spike but it's not yet certain where it will be. Could be more or less than 90M, but it will definitely go up drastically. 2) The max is a percentage of the cap. If/when the cap jumps to 90, 22.5M is the new 25%. 22.5-13.4=9.1 3) I'm mentioning distance below max to give you a sense of how many of your players are on good-acceptable deals compared to a maximum contract. I'm fully aware that most of your players have already signed their long term contracts and that was never my point. 6) 9M is a good price for a backup point guard because the cap is no longer 63.1M. When a maximum deal for young players (0-6 years exp) is over 22 million, 9 million is still a bargain for any decent player. 7) Vlade, I respect your right to direct criticisms and insults at me, but if I've proved myself worthy in Billy's eyes to hold a spot on every committee as well as a moderator position, I imagine your negative opinion of me is at least partially unfounded. Please drop the shitty attitude and we will not have any more problems. #7: I put a qualifier in my post about in the general discussion, but I personally think you and Billy have the shitty attitudes. I am genuinely trying to understand you and we are making progress, so congrats to you. #1: I live by the following quote: "the hen is the wisest of all God's creation because it does not cackle until it has laid the egg." The cap stands at 70 M right now and I am going to operate under that premise. Obviously, you think the cap will go up for sure. While I don't agree, at least it makes more sense knowing that's how you feel. #2: Okay, but what do statements like ""salary roughly 9M below 16-17 max" mean if the max is 22.5 as you alleged in your last post? #3: Then what was your point? I am not trying to be an ass but I do not understand. #6: See #1. |
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Nov 10, 2015 13:53:21 GMT -5
1) TV deal worth 2.6 Billion kicks in 16-17, Salary cap is tied to revenue, cap is guaranteed to spike but it's not yet certain where it will be. Could be more or less than 90M, but it will definitely go up drastically. 2) The max is a percentage of the cap. If/when the cap jumps to 90, 22.5M is the new 25%. 22.5-13.4=9.1 3) I'm mentioning distance below max to give you a sense of how many of your players are on good-acceptable deals compared to a maximum contract. I'm fully aware that most of your players have already signed their long term contracts and that was never my point. 6) 9M is a good price for a backup point guard because the cap is no longer 63.1M. When a maximum deal for young players (0-6 years exp) is over 22 million, 9 million is still a bargain for any decent player. 7) Vlade, I respect your right to direct criticisms and insults at me, but if I've proved myself worthy in Billy's eyes to hold a spot on every committee as well as a moderator position, I imagine your negative opinion of me is at least partially unfounded. Please drop the shitty attitude and we will not have any more problems. #7: I put a qualifier in my post about in the general discussion, but I personally think you and Billy have the shitty attitudes. I am genuinely trying to understand you and we are making progress, so congrats to you. #1: I live by the following quote: "the hen is the wisest of all God's creation because it does not cackle until it has laid the egg." The cap stands at 70 M right now and I am going to operate under that premise. Obviously, you think the cap will go up for sure. While I don't agree, at least it makes more sense knowing that's how you feel. #2: Okay, but what do statements like ""salary roughly 9M below 16-17 max" mean if the max is 22.5 as you alleged in your last post? #3: Then what was your point? I am not trying to be an ass but I do not understand. #6: See #1. I don't even begin to understand where you're coming from claiming Billy and I have shitty attitudes, Neither of us have done anything beyond voting against this trade in what we both consider to be your best interest. And it's not as if we're the only two with that opinion. In terms of the salary cap rising, I'm not sure what other evidence you need... The TV deal is structured and finalized and will bring in an extra 2.6 billion in revenue starting in 2016-17, period. The deal will directly affect the cap. No one can say for sure what the cap will be, but it's about as certain as it ever possibly could be that the cap rises, and it's far more likely to exceed 90M than it is to fall short of it. Your caution is fair, and safe, but game planning for a future where the cap doesn't rise could actually come back to bite you, as players who would have been worth 17.5 will instead be worth 22.5 (and adjusted accordingly for the 30% and 35% FAs). Having max space for two players under this cap still will not get you max cap space for two players under the new cap. You're potentially hurting yourself MORE by underestimating the value of Rubio's deal (which may be bad at 70M but looks great under 90M) and trading him in favor of the space to sign a player that may ultimately may not be any better for roughly 9M more. <- And THAT is what I mean by pointing out players deals in relation to the new cap: It's not about what they'd receive in free agency today or next year, it's about knowing that if a comparable/slightly better player costs you ~9M more, you actively hurt yourself by moving what seemed at the time like a bad contract. Also, while this is all rough estimates, the math is sound nonetheless, and the only speculation involved is the cap rising (which you'd be hard pressed to find someone else that shares your opinion that the cap won't rise), so if you want to claim I'm making shit up or talking out of my ass please don't. |
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Post by Kylo Ren on Nov 10, 2015 14:26:10 GMT -5
#7: I put a qualifier in my post about in the general discussion, but I personally think you and Billy have the shitty attitudes. I am genuinely trying to understand you and we are making progress, so congrats to you. #1: I live by the following quote: "the hen is the wisest of all God's creation because it does not cackle until it has laid the egg." The cap stands at 70 M right now and I am going to operate under that premise. Obviously, you think the cap will go up for sure. While I don't agree, at least it makes more sense knowing that's how you feel. #2: Okay, but what do statements like ""salary roughly 9M below 16-17 max" mean if the max is 22.5 as you alleged in your last post? #3: Then what was your point? I am not trying to be an ass but I do not understand. #6: See #1. I don't even begin to understand where you're coming from claiming Billy and I have shitty attitudes, Neither of us have done anything beyond voting against this trade in what we both consider to be your best interest. And it's not as if we're the only two with that opinion. In terms of the salary cap rising, I'm not sure what other evidence you need... The TV deal is structured and finalized and will bring in an extra 2.6 billion in revenue starting in 2016-17, period. The deal will directly affect the cap. No one can say for sure what the cap will be, but it's about as certain as it ever possibly could be that the cap rises, and it's far more likely to exceed 90M than it is to fall short of it. Your caution is fair, and safe, but game planning for a future where the cap doesn't rise could actually come back to bite you, as players who would have been worth 17.5 will instead be worth 22.5 (and adjusted accordingly for the 30% and 35% FAs). Having max space for two players under this cap still will not get you max cap space for two players under the new cap. You're potentially hurting yourself MORE by underestimating the value of Rubio's deal (which may be bad at 70M but looks great under 90M) and trading him in favor of the space to sign a player that may ultimately may not be any better for roughly 9M more. <- And THAT is what I mean by pointing out players deals in relation to the new cap: It's not about what they'd receive in free agency today or next year, it's about knowing that if a comparable/slightly better player costs you ~9M more, you actively hurt yourself by moving what seemed at the time like a bad contract. Also, while this is all rough estimates, the math is sound nonetheless, and the only speculation involved is the cap rising (which you'd be hard pressed to find someone else that shares your opinion that the cap won't rise), so if you want to claim I'm making shit up or talking out of my ass please don't. That's not true! Billy said "I always make bad move." Fair enough, but what if the cap only raises to 80 M? That doesn't do me a ton of good. I am not sure what the "max" will be, but I know that I possess a lot better chances at offering a max deal after this deal regardless of the salary cap. That makes sense, but I think Patty Mills is a better player than Ricky Rubio. Actually, I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me. I think a lot of the problem derives from the fact you use a lot of short-hand and/or assume your reader knows what you are talking about. Either way, we came to an understanding and I want to thank you for effort. |
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Toronto Raptors