OKC-MIN

[Steve Jobs]

---

OKC Trades:

(74) Marc Gasol -             $15,829,688
(68) Draymond Green -    $915,243 $2,725,003
(60) Tony Wroten -          $1,210,080 $2,179,354 $3,201,471
OKC 2017 1st Round Pick
OKC 2018 2nd Round Pick
Draft Rights to Thanasis Antetokounmpo

Salary Traded: $17,955,011
Salary Before: $55,944,798
Salary After:   $51,691,037

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MIN Trades:

(76) DeMarcus Cousins - $13,701,250 $14,728,844 $15,756,438 $16,784,031

Salary Traded: $13,701,250
Salary Before: $43,925,994
Salary After:   $48,179,755

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I accept this trade.  My team has been struggling lately and I'm hopeful that this trade can give me the push that I'll need to make a splash in the playoffs.

Trading my only star player in Marc Gasol by himself isn't an easy choice, especially when his trade value will skyrocket next season once he's signed to a long deal.  So it's understandable that including Draymond Green (my 2nd round pick who I drafted to be a cornerstone of the franchise), Tony Wroten (the PG I traded for in hopes of having him run the point for my team for the foreseeable future once Rondo expires), my 2017 1st round pick (a likely lottery pick among my favorite draft class over the next 3 years), and the draft rights to Thanasis Antetokounmpo (who will already be joining the Knicks for the 15-16 season in real life) is a very difficult offer to make.  But Boogie is one of my top 2 favorite players in the league, and a guy that I'm definitely willing to make this deal for.  

Milt Newton billy Donald Trump Keith Van Horn Blake Bowman John Stockton Reggie Miller

[Milt Newton]

The Minnesota Timberwolves happily accept this trade.
It is with a heavy heart that we part with DMC, but with the acquisition of a great 3&D player in Draymond Green, a defensive stalwart in Marc Gasol and a good point guard in Tony Wroten, plus draft rights to Thanasis and two picks? How can we resist? We look forward to signing both Green and Gasol to long term contracts this offseason.

[billy]

Aug 19, 2015 18:15:31 GMT -5 Milt Newton said:

The Minnesota Timberwolves happily accept this trade.
It is with a heavy heart that we part with DMC, but with the acquisition of a great 3&D player in Draymond Green, a defensive stalwart in Marc Gasol and a good point guard in Tony Wroten, plus draft rights to Thanasis and two picks? How can we resist? We look forward to signing both Green and Gasol to long term contracts this offseason.

You do realize your chances of resigning Marc Gasol are slim to none.

[billy]

My opinion:

This is very very similar to the John Wall trade.

Draymond Green + 2017 1st + trashy 2nds > Zeller + Burke

However, 25 games of Marc Gasol <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 2 years of Mike Conley.

Marc Gasol has literally no reason to sign with the Minnesota Timberwolves this offseason, and I would be seriously surprised if he chose to sign there, as he is going to get max contract offers from probably a dozen teams, 10 of which will be better positioned than Minnesota to make a championship run.

[Milt Newton]

Aug 19, 2015 18:53:06 GMT -5 billy said:

My opinion:

This is very very similar to the John Wall trade.

Draymond Green + 2017 1st + trashy 2nds > Zeller + Burke

However, 25 games of Marc Gasol <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 2 years of Mike Conley.

Marc Gasol has literally no reason to sign with the Minnesota Timberwolves this offseason, and I would be seriously surprised if he chose to sign there, as he is going to get max contract offers from probably a dozen teams, 10 of which will be better positioned than Minnesota to make a championship run.

I thought players can choose to sign elsewhere even if you give a better contract? thats not cool man 

[billy]

Aug 19, 2015 19:14:06 GMT -5 Milt Newton said:

Aug 19, 2015 18:53:06 GMT -5 billy said:

My opinion:

This is very very similar to the John Wall trade.

Draymond Green + 2017 1st + trashy 2nds > Zeller + Burke

However, 25 games of Marc Gasol <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 2 years of Mike Conley.

Marc Gasol has literally no reason to sign with the Minnesota Timberwolves this offseason, and I would be seriously surprised if he chose to sign there, as he is going to get max contract offers from probably a dozen teams, 10 of which will be better positioned than Minnesota to make a championship run.

I thought players can choose to sign elsewhere even if you give a better contract? thats not cool man 

Players take into account multiple things when deciding where to sign, one of them (the biggest) is the money amount of the contract.

However, you nor OKC would have Gasols bird rights, so like I said earlier, there will probably be at least a handful of teams that all offer Marc Gasol the exact same Maximum contract. At that point, the player agent has to make a decision based on the makeup of the team, and even with Gasol, your team probably wouldn't make the playoffs which could possibly put you behind other teams in the pecking order.

It is like this in pinoyhoops as well so take note!

I'm not saying you have no chance to resign Gasol, he could resign with you, but in real life he chose to stay with the grizzlies because of his loyalty to the team and the staff there, he has no such loyalty to minnesota in this scenario.

[John Stockton]

yeah gasol isnt gonna resign with minnesota. no debate there.

[Keith Van Horn]

Reject.

You guys need to get your head out of your asses. Why draft the best young center in the league, on an amazing contract, to trade him for an expiring, older center you have nearly zero chance at re-signing? Draymond Green is an RFA.

This trade is very lopsided. Dray is good. But at this point, he is hugely overrated. There is risk involved with Dray, I don't know how people don't see it. He's a 6'8 (if that) center who had one breakout season and now he is the main piece in a deal for Cousins? You gotta be kidding me.

Contracts play a HUGE role in trades. Yeah, Gasol is the better center. But he isn't worth any where near as much as Cousins. And Dray is good, but he doesn't have a lot of value because of the contract.

And please don't act like Tony Worten and trash helps. It really doesn't.

[Steve Jobs]

I feel like Marc's loyalty towards the Grizzlies should be taken into account by his player agent no matter where he's at or how much he's offered. It's a portion of his character that affects all of his decision making, and to stay on a team he's on and pay less attention to money or ability to contend is just something that we should make Gasol's #1 factor in decision making. In real life, there are plenty of other, better teams than the Grizzlies, and plenty of them would have loved to sign him this offseason. Gasol didn't even set up any meetings with them, it was just known from the beginning he'd be staying with Memphis. All the while, Conley was refusing to sign an extension this offseason and there's no way to know if he'll stick around or leave after 15-16, but Gasol chose to stay with the Grizzlies regardless - not knowing if the team would even be worthwhile in 16-17 because Conley might leave and they surely won't recover from that within a year.

To me, It's intense loyalty, like almost no other current NBA players show, that defines Marc Gasol as a person and a player, and I'll be insanely disappointed in this league, and in Blake as the player agent in charge of players like Gasol, if that loyalty isn't represented accurately come the offseason.

Also, I don't know why any of that should really matter, telling him he's not very likely to keep Gasol is just being intentionally over-dramatic. I know 30ish games on a team apparently doesn't mean anything to you for loyalty, but most real life players that get traded before the deadline stick around in the offseason because the team clearly traded for them as an expiring having had a stronger desire to sign them than any other team in the league... trading for an expiring with intent to keep them shows more than anything else that a team: has a strong, defined role for the player; has already created the cap space to give them all the money that they'll want to ask for; and above all else - was willing to give up current assets to acquire said player and get their foot in the door, as opposed to just waiting until free agency to try their hand at getting him. To me, if a team like the Timberwolves trades for a player as loyal as Gasol at this point in the season, offers him a max once he expires, and shows they have the minutes, the proper role, and the commitment to building a solid team around him (easily done with promises, plus Minnesota has a very solid young core already built, and I'm offering a lot of extra depth in the trade that will make his team ever more likely to take a leap forward through the end of the year and next season.) Having a core of Marcus Smart, Tyreke Evans, Doug McDermott, and Draymond Green, is a very enticing young team to re-sign with and try to build a long-lasting legacy (exactly like Gasol has chosen to do with the Grizzlies).

[Steve Jobs]

This is crazy. You guys are so conspiratorial with how you treat Free Agency that you're really going to act like Gasol stands no chance to resign with Minnesota even though, as a real life player, that's 100% the most likely decision he would make. Making a league where players don't come with the Bird Rights they have in real life has seriously fucked up player value and league decision making so bad it's not even funny. If a real life team offered Marc Gasol, Draymond Green, Tony Wroten, 1st round pick, and the draft rights to a young guy with really good role player talent at worst for DeMarcus Cousins, the trade would be accepted so fast it would be an afterthought before it even made the news.

Also, Keith, you might want to spend more time researching your players. Draymond is a 6'8" SF/PF (hmm, that's what LeBron does...) that just happened to play some Center in the most extreme instances of Small Ball this century has ever witnessed. No one has any delusions about Green being a Center. He's an insanely good defender, the second best player on a championship winning team that also included Klay Thompson and several other great players, and worth acquiring as the main piece in a trade because he's actually that good. You can call him overrated if you want, but no one is scoffing at the Warriors offering him a max because he's played like a max player.

[billy]

Aug 19, 2015 20:02:26 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

Also, I don't know why any of that should really matter, telling him he's not very likely to keep Gasol is just being intentionally over-dramatic. I know 30ish games on a team apparently doesn't mean anything to you for loyalty, but most real life players that get traded before the deadline stick around in the offseason because the team clearly traded for them as an expiring having had a stronger desire to sign them than any other team in the league... trading for an expiring with intent to keep them shows more than anything else that a team: has a strong, defined role for the player; has already created the cap space to give them all the money that they'll want to ask for; and above all else - was willing to give up current assets to acquire said player and get their foot in the door, as opposed to just waiting until free agency to try their hand at getting him. To me, if a team like the Timberwolves trades for a player as loyal as Gasol at this point in the season, offers him a max once he expires, and shows they have the minutes, the proper role, and the commitment to building a solid team around him (easily done with promises, plus Minnesota has a very solid young core already built, and I'm offering a lot of extra depth in the trade that will make his team ever more likely to take a leap forward through the end of the year and next season.) Having a core of Marcus Smart, Tyreke Evans, Doug McDermott, and Draymond Green, is a very enticing young team to re-sign with and try to build a long-lasting legacy (exactly like Gasol has chosen to do with the Grizzlies).

You think if the Grizzlies had traded Marc Gasol to the celtics with 30 games left in this year (with no input from him) you think boston would've been the odds on favorite to resign marc gasol??

[Steve Jobs]

Aug 19, 2015 20:13:20 GMT -5 billy said:

Aug 19, 2015 20:02:26 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

Also, I don't know why any of that should really matter, telling him he's not very likely to keep Gasol is just being intentionally over-dramatic. I know 30ish games on a team apparently doesn't mean anything to you for loyalty, but most real life players that get traded before the deadline stick around in the offseason because the team clearly traded for them as an expiring having had a stronger desire to sign them than any other team in the league... trading for an expiring with intent to keep them shows more than anything else that a team: has a strong, defined role for the player; has already created the cap space to give them all the money that they'll want to ask for; and above all else - was willing to give up current assets to acquire said player and get their foot in the door, as opposed to just waiting until free agency to try their hand at getting him. To me, if a team like the Timberwolves trades for a player as loyal as Gasol at this point in the season, offers him a max once he expires, and shows they have the minutes, the proper role, and the commitment to building a solid team around him (easily done with promises, plus Minnesota has a very solid young core already built, and I'm offering a lot of extra depth in the trade that will make his team ever more likely to take a leap forward through the end of the year and next season.) Having a core of Marcus Smart, Tyreke Evans, Doug McDermott, and Draymond Green, is a very enticing young team to re-sign with and try to build a long-lasting legacy (exactly like Gasol has chosen to do with the Grizzlies).

You think if the Grizzlies had traded Marc Gasol to the celtics with 30 games left in this year (with no input from him) you think boston would've been the odds on favorite to resign marc gasol??

If the Grizzlies traded Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph, and a really solid back up PG to the Celtics, I think the chances are pretty damn good, yeah.

[billy]

Aug 19, 2015 20:15:41 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

Aug 19, 2015 20:13:20 GMT -5 billy said:

You think if the Grizzlies had traded Marc Gasol to the celtics with 30 games left in this year (with no input from him) you think boston would've been the odds on favorite to resign marc gasol??

If the Grizzlies traded Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph, and a really solid back up PG to the Celtics, I think the chances are pretty damn good, yeah.

Hmm I think you might be right, with Gasol being a very special case in this instance. You would admit though that if it was another player that isn't arguably the "most loyal" player in the NBA that the trade would be rubbish?

[Steve Jobs]

Aug 19, 2015 20:17:50 GMT -5 billy said:

Aug 19, 2015 20:15:41 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

If the Grizzlies traded Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph, and a really solid back up PG to the Celtics, I think the chances are pretty damn good, yeah.

Hmm I think you might be right, with Gasol being a very special case in this instance. You would admit though that if it was another player that isn't arguably the "most loyal" player in the NBA that the trade would be rubbish?

Yeah.  100%.  Absolutely.  But I wouldn't be offering Gasol in a deal like this if that wasn't the case.

[billy]

Aug 19, 2015 20:20:18 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

Aug 19, 2015 20:17:50 GMT -5 billy said:

Hmm I think you might be right, with Gasol being a very special case in this instance. You would admit though that if it was another player that isn't arguably the "most loyal" player in the NBA that the trade would be rubbish?

Yeah.  100%.  Absolutely.  But I wouldn't be offering Gasol in a deal like this if that wasn't the case.

I am glad that there will be a committee vote deciding the final resting place of free agents instead of that power lying just with the player agent. I already feel a big Marc Gasol showdown coming... again.

for the uninitiated in marc gasol drama, Marc Gasol was a free agent in the daddy-sim league D5, and his free agent thread was 7 pages of bitching: dynasty5ive.proboards.com/thread/6323/marc-gasol-mil

[Blake Bowman]

Why would Marc's loyalty to the team he has always played for have anything to do with a team he plays a few games for? I get that he's loyal, but if a team offers a better situation it's a different story.

I'm not discounting anyone and would never say that "so-and-so" has no chance or a guarantee at any player at this point. I just don't see how a loyal player to the team he's played his entire career with is comparable to this situation to the point that 30 games = YEARS with an organization. I'd say MIN would definitely have a decent shot since they would be giving up a crazy amount for him and to discount them from resigning him wouldn't make sense, but its a different situation than the one in real life so its no guarantee.

[Blake Bowman]

Aug 19, 2015 20:22:10 GMT -5 billy said:

Aug 19, 2015 20:20:18 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

Yeah.  100%.  Absolutely.  But I wouldn't be offering Gasol in a deal like this if that wasn't the case.

I am glad that there will be a committee vote deciding the final resting place of free agents instead of that power lying just with the player agent. I already feel a big Marc Gasol showdown coming... again.

for the uninitiated in marc gasol drama, Marc Gasol was a free agent in the daddy-sim league D5, and his free agent thread was 7 pages of bitching: dynasty5ive.proboards.com/thread/6323/marc-gasol-mil

good times

[Steve Jobs]

Aug 19, 2015 20:22:10 GMT -5 billy said:

Aug 19, 2015 20:20:18 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

Yeah.  100%.  Absolutely.  But I wouldn't be offering Gasol in a deal like this if that wasn't the case.

I am glad that there will be a committee vote deciding the final resting place of free agents instead of that power lying just with the player agent. I already feel a big Marc Gasol showdown coming... again.

for the uninitiated in marc gasol drama, Marc Gasol was a free agent in the daddy-sim league D5, and his free agent thread was 7 pages of bitching: dynasty5ive.proboards.com/thread/6323/marc-gasol-mil

I'm very much hoping that all the experience from the previous leagues will help us to get through this offseason without a hitch.  But at the very least, know that situations like these are battles I will fight 'til the (sim-league) death to help make sure this league is as fair and realistic as possible.  I wouldn't really be that interested in being a part of the league otherwise.

[Reggie Miller]

Demarcus Cousins is one of the best centers todate.. you will have his BR plus he is still improving and with coach Karl I think he'll improve more.. trading him with players like Gasol, Green and Wroten is great and with that future 1st rd and 2nd rd pick make it more good but it will be a risk for the future of your team.. there is a great chance that you will not be able to sign both of them..

I didn't see the standing I thought the TWolves are contending I almost accept this if the Twolves are contending this year.. so I reject

[Keith Van Horn]

Aug 19, 2015 20:15:41 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

Aug 19, 2015 20:13:20 GMT -5 billy said:

You think if the Grizzlies had traded Marc Gasol to the celtics with 30 games left in this year (with no input from him) you think boston would've been the odds on favorite to resign marc gasol??

If the Grizzlies traded Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph, and a really solid back up PG to the Celtics, I think the chances are pretty damn good, yeah.

Is that what you're trading here? Because it doesn't seem as such. 

It is about VALUE!! One side of the equation needs to be near equal to the other. 

And the best Center in the game under 25, on a long term contract, that will look like pennies when the cap goes up, is worth more than what is being given in this deal. 

Tony Wroten isn't a "really solid backup PG". Hate to burst your bubble on that one, bub. He played 30 games last season for Philly. And had insanely inflated stats. Someone on the outside had to put up stats for that team. Around the league, Wroten isn't a highly regarded prospect, or even considered to be a comparable back up. 

Marc Gasol is on a one year contract. Everything is null and void after that. Minnesota is 7.5 games back from the 8th spot in the playoffs. So, Gasol isn't being traded to the Timberwolves to help give them a push. 

Draymond Green is Draymond Green. In my opinion, he is overrated right now. He is a 6'7 center. He is essentially a gimmick. He is like the wildcat in American Football. And, even if he does continue this string of great play, you have his RFA rights but not his BRs.

And if I'm Dray's agent, hell if I am any RFA's agent, I'm just taking the qualifying offer if the offer sheets are not good enough. The cap is going to increase DRAMATICALLY. Everyone will have money. And Dray will go get a huge pay day from anyone who offers. 

This trade is not good for you Minny. This trade is not passable in its current form, in my opinion. And I would imagine most of my TC members will feel the same.

KVH Out

[Steve Jobs]

Aug 19, 2015 20:28:08 GMT -5 Blake Bowman said:

Why would Marc's loyalty to the team he has always played for have anything to do with a team he plays a few games for? I get that he's loyal, but if a team offers a better situation it's a different story.

I'm not discounting anyone and would never say that "so-and-so" has no chance or a guarantee at any player at this point. I just don't see how a loyal player to the team he's played his entire career with is comparable to this situation to the point that 30 games = YEARS with an organization. I'd say MIN would definitely have a decent shot since they would be giving up a crazy amount for him and to discount them from resigning him wouldn't make sense, but its a different situation than the one in real life so its no guarantee.

Also worth noting: as far as any of these players are concerned, they've only existed for a year.  "Loyalty to the team" is not the Marc Gasol brand loyalty I'm referring to so much as just "loyalty" in general.  And it can't be ignored, playing side by side with Draymond Green for "his entire existence" (lol) and then being traded with him, it's far and away the most likely situation for him to desire to be in.  And again, Marc Gasol would be stupid not to realize that adding himself, Draymond, and Wroten to the young group of talented players already assembled in Minnesota makes them a decently formidable team.  Considering the "loyalty" factor, which I believe should be Gasol's biggest factor in choosing, I don't believe there are any other contenders in the league with strong enough need for Gasol as well as all of the cap space necessary to bring him back without trading away good players to make the room.  Virtually all of the contenders already have a good Center, are way over the cap, and have absolutely 0% of Gasol's loyalty factor.  The case to be made for Gasol staying in Minnesota after this deal is much stronger, in my opinion, than the case that could be made for him wanting to leave for more money (impossible) or a better contender.

[Steve Jobs]

Aug 19, 2015 20:35:49 GMT -5 Keith Van Horn said:

Aug 19, 2015 20:15:41 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

If the Grizzlies traded Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph, and a really solid back up PG to the Celtics, I think the chances are pretty damn good, yeah.

Is that what you're trading here? Because it doesn't seem as such. 

It is about VALUE!! One side of the equation needs to be near equal to the other. 

And the best Center in the game under 25, on a long term contract, that will look like pennies when the cap goes up, is worth more than what is being given in this deal. 

Tony Wroten isn't a "really solid backup PG". Hate to burst your bubble on that one, bub. He played 30 games last season for Philly. And had insanely inflated stats. Someone on the outside had to put up stats for that team. Around the league, Wroten isn't a highly regarded prospect, or even considered to be a comparable back up. 

Marc Gasol is on a one year contract. Everything is null and void after that. Minnesota is 7.5 games back from the 8th spot in the playoffs. So, Gasol isn't being traded to the Timberwolves to help give them a push. 

Draymond Green is Draymond Green. In my opinion, he is overrated right now. He is a 6'7 center. He is essentially a gimmick. He is like the wildcat in American Football. And, even if he does continue this string of great play, you have his RFA rights but not his BRs.

And if I'm Dray's agent, hell if I am any RFA's agent, I'm just taking the qualifying offer if the offer sheets are not good enough. The cap is going to increase DRAMATICALLY. Everyone will have money. And Dray will go get a huge pay day from anyone who offers. 

This trade is not good for you Minny. This trade is not passable in its current form, in my opinion. And I would imagine most of my TC members will feel the same.

KVH Out

How do you explain the fact that literally 0 notable RFAs have taken the qualifying offer this offseason?  Getting max guaranteed money in the now is a lot better than chancing a bad season or an injury and losing the shot at getting any money.  Kawhi Leonard did it.  Jimmy Butler did it even though everyone said he wouldn't.  Draymond Green (not a f'ing center, no one except you thinks that dude) did it.  Khris Middleton did it. Tobias Harris did it. Brandon Knight, Enes Kanter, Reggie Jackson, Iman Shumpert.  The only RFA in the entire league that didn't take the long term offer they're being given is Tristan Thompson, and that's because he hasn't been offered a full max by Cleveland and won't actually have a starting job because of Kevin Love - understandable factors - yet he's still saying if they offer him a full max he'll take it.

Secondly, the only way that a RFA like Draymond doesn't come with bird rights included, because of the RFA, is in the situation you just mentioned.  And as I just showed, it simply isn't a common occurrence... it just doesn't happen.  There's practically no evidence anywhere of players, outside of LeBron James, taking one-year deals to pursue more money later.  It's insanely risky for those players to do it and that's why you don't see it done.

Lastly, you pointed it out yourself - Minny is only 7.5 games out of 8th place and a chance to compete.  Adding Gasol (a comparable center) as well as Draymond Green makes them a good deal better and it's easy to imagine that if they make the playoffs this year, Gasol will have every inclination to return and see what they can do with a full year together.  

And I'm sorry, but your argument about Wroten is the most blatantly silly argument you've made.  Any player that is literally the starter for an NBA team, no matter how bad, will make a "really solid back up point guard."  That's how this works.  You shouldn't feel any compulsion to consider him great, but he's certainly coming as I'm offering him here - no better or worse than a solid player to come off the bench behind Minnesota's franchise PG in Smart. He's 23, let's wait to see what he can do with a full year of being a starter before we declare him worthless.

I'm of the opinion that Marc Gasol should be considered 75% likely to return at worst.  With Gasol, Green, Wroten, and Thanasis in place of Cousins, as well as a 1st round pick likely to be worth something because I, more than anyone else, know what my team will have left after this year is over and know I won't be able to rebuild that quickly, it's impossible to say that team won't be better off over the course of the next 5 years.

[billy]

Aug 19, 2015 21:02:35 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

How do you explain the fact that literally 0 notable RFAs have taken the qualifying offer this offseason?  Getting max guaranteed money in the now is a lot better than chancing a bad season or an injury and losing the shot at getting any money.  Kawhi Leonard did it.  Jimmy Butler did it even though everyone said he wouldn't.  Draymond Green (not a f'ing center, no one except you thinks that dude) did it.  Khris Middleton did it. Tobias Harris did it. Brandon Knight, Enes Kanter, Reggie Jackson, Iman Shumpert.  The only RFA in the entire league that didn't take the long term offer they're being given is Tristan Thompson, and that's because he hasn't been offered a full max by Cleveland and won't actually have a starting job because of Kevin Love - understandable factors - yet he's still saying if they offer him a full max he'll take it.

This is one aspect I agree with. The way the D5 offseason went compared to the real NBA offseason shows us two things. That there won't be a shitload of player options in the big deals coming out, and two that players are going to take the guaranteed money, because anything can happen.

OKC is right to point out the only player of note that signed a short term deal with the idea that the cap goes up soon is lebron. Why did he do that and no one else did? Well, because of the risk of injury.

If Kawhi Leonard, or Jimmy Butler tore had signed a short term deal and then they tear their ACL, would they get a max contract coming off ACL surgery? Maybe... probably not though.

Would Lebron get a max contract coming off a season ending injury? Yes.

[Steve Jobs]

Just because there is uncertainty on our side of things doesn't mean I think that the decision we collectively make for Gasol's future should be based 100% on his real life personality, and tendencies. Just in his overall loyalty alone, I would say 40% likely to stay should be realistic. With Minnesota giving up Cousins to pursue a future with Gasol, I say it should skyrocket to 80-90%, but conservatively it should still be like 60-70% at that point. Then to say that having a chance to continue playing with the PF that he's been coupled with for almost the entire season (aka almost "his entire career") increases the odds of him staying by another 5-15% would be super realistic considering how much Gasol loves playing next to Z-Bo.

But whatever. This is the second time I've come forward with a trade I'd consider very worthwhile (this one far more so than the Butler trade), and the second time I've been met with a huge amount of resistance as if I'm offer shit on a cracker instead of a top 3 center, a 25 year old DPOY runner up on an RFA deal, and several other worthwhile pieces that help make sure he's not throwing away all of his future for nothing. I thought the Wall trade was just barely rejectable, but in my opinion this trade offer is not even close to comparable because I'm throwing my 2 best players and every asset I can at him, while Seattle would have added John Wall at the price of their 2nd best player and a couple assets that would still leave their team very much intact on the other end.

I've long since come to realize that a lot of the other people in this league value players far differently than I do, but the least we can do is try to make sure we've got a fair and rational system in place so that when someone offers a deal like this for Cousins (a 100% crazy ridiculous overpay if Marc Gasol came with Bird Rights) we don't treat it like an outright, disgustingly rejectable trade.

[billy]

Aug 19, 2015 21:29:01 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

Just because there is uncertainty on our side of things doesn't mean I think that the decision we collectively make for Gasol's future should be based 100% on his real life personality, and tendencies. Just in his overall loyalty alone, I would say 40% likely to stay should be realistic. With Minnesota giving up Cousins to pursue a future with Gasol, I say it should skyrocket to 80-90%, but conservatively it should still be like 60-70% at that point. Then to say that having a chance to continue playing with the PF that he's been coupled with for almost the entire season (aka almost "his entire career") increases the odds of him staying by another 5-15% would be super realistic considering how much Gasol loves playing next to Z-Bo.

But whatever. This is the second time I've come forward with a trade I'd consider very worthwhile (this one far more so than the Butler trade), and the second time I've been met with a huge amount of resistance as if I'm offer shit on a cracker instead of a top 3 center, a 25 year old DPOY runner up on an RFA deal, and several other worthwhile pieces that help make sure he's not throwing away all of his future for nothing. I thought the Wall trade was just barely rejectable, but in my opinion this trade offer is not even close to comparable because I'm throwing my 2 best players and every asset I can at him, while Seattle would have added John Wall at the price of their 2nd best player and a couple assets that would still leave their team very much intact on the other end.

I've long since come to realize that a lot of the other people in this league value players far differently than I do, but the least we can do is try to make sure we've got a fair and rational system in place so that when someone offers a deal like this for Cousins (a 100% crazy ridiculous overpay if Marc Gasol came with Bird Rights) we don't treat it like an outright, disgustingly rejectable trade.

I think the trade is close, much better than the Butler or Wall trade. If Gasol has BR it would be a definite accept, but this trade is very very volatile.

Look at it this way Steve, if Gasol resigns with Minnesota then the deal is fair, maybe in slight favor to him (I wouldn't do this deal on his side though 50% of your cap tied up in two non superstar players is a dangerous way to build a team), but if Gasol doesn't resign this trade is a straight up disaster for Minnesota.

Expiring players just hold much less value than long contract players... It's just a fact of leagues like this.

I know you look at what Millsap got on the market and think you should get similar for Gasol, and yes he is worth a similar amount... But to the right team. An expiring star without bird rights really only has value to a team chasing a championship (Minnesota is not). So the only value he gets from Gasol is if he resigns.

Let's say 50% of the value you're offering is Gasol if he resigns, and 50% is the rest of it. Call it 40-60 if you want, but either way, this trade is a straight up disaster if Minnesota cannot resign him. 75% chance of resign for any player without bird rights seems much too high for me. In D5 in the past players without bird rights are basically up for grabs, and have little player loyalty to the teams that trades for them. Maybe that will be different here, our player agents are different, and you've already expressed your views on the situation, and I don't know the views of the other player agents so I can't comment there, but if a team that was a Marc Gasol away from a ring (Toronto, Seattle type team) came at Marc Gasol hard, offering the max, it would be a difficult decision. Surely not 75% or 95%, his loyalty to the Grizzlies IRL is an entirely different situation than we have here, IMO.

But I'm going to accept this deal.

Though Minnesota needs to clear some cap room to have space for two max contracts. So get to work!

[Steve Jobs]

Aug 19, 2015 21:44:18 GMT -5 billy said:

Aug 19, 2015 21:29:01 GMT -5 Steve Jobs said:

Just because there is uncertainty on our side of things doesn't mean I think that the decision we collectively make for Gasol's future should be based 100% on his real life personality, and tendencies. Just in his overall loyalty alone, I would say 40% likely to stay should be realistic. With Minnesota giving up Cousins to pursue a future with Gasol, I say it should skyrocket to 80-90%, but conservatively it should still be like 60-70% at that point. Then to say that having a chance to continue playing with the PF that he's been coupled with for almost the entire season (aka almost "his entire career") increases the odds of him staying by another 5-15% would be super realistic considering how much Gasol loves playing next to Z-Bo.

But whatever. This is the second time I've come forward with a trade I'd consider very worthwhile (this one far more so than the Butler trade), and the second time I've been met with a huge amount of resistance as if I'm offer shit on a cracker instead of a top 3 center, a 25 year old DPOY runner up on an RFA deal, and several other worthwhile pieces that help make sure he's not throwing away all of his future for nothing. I thought the Wall trade was just barely rejectable, but in my opinion this trade offer is not even close to comparable because I'm throwing my 2 best players and every asset I can at him, while Seattle would have added John Wall at the price of their 2nd best player and a couple assets that would still leave their team very much intact on the other end.

I've long since come to realize that a lot of the other people in this league value players far differently than I do, but the least we can do is try to make sure we've got a fair and rational system in place so that when someone offers a deal like this for Cousins (a 100% crazy ridiculous overpay if Marc Gasol came with Bird Rights) we don't treat it like an outright, disgustingly rejectable trade.

I think the trade is close, much better than the Butler or Wall trade. If Gasol has BR it would be a definite accept, but this trade is very very volatile.

Look at it this way Steve, if Gasol resigns with Minnesota then the deal is fair, maybe in slight favor to him (I wouldn't do this deal on his side though 50% of your cap tied up in two non superstar players is a dangerous way to build a team), but if Gasol doesn't resign this trade is a straight up disaster for Minnesota.

Expiring players just hold much less value than long contract players... It's just a fact of leagues like this.

I know you look at what Millsap got on the market and think you should get similar for Gasol, and yes he is worth a similar amount... But to the right team. An expiring star without bird rights really only has value to a team chasing a championship (Minnesota is not). So the only value he gets from Gasol is if he resigns.

Let's say 50% of the value you're offering is Gasol if he resigns, and 50% is the rest of it. Call it 40-60 if you want, but either way, this trade is a straight up disaster if Minnesota cannot resign him. 75% chance of resign for any player without bird rights seems much too high for me. In D5 in the past players without bird rights are basically up for grabs, and have little player loyalty to the teams that trades for them. Maybe that will be different here, our player agents are different, and you've already expressed your views on the situation, and I don't know the views of the other player agents so I can't comment there, but if a team that was a Marc Gasol away from a ring (Toronto, Seattle type team) came at Marc Gasol hard, offering the max, it would be a difficult decision. Surely not 75% or 95%, his loyalty to the Grizzlies IRL is an entirely different situation than we have here, IMO.

But I'm going to accept this deal.

Though Minnesota needs to clear some cap room to have space for two max contracts. So get to work!

A) I acknowledge Millsap was an overpay, but I also acknowledge Marc Gasol is a top tier star (bordering on superstar except Memphis doesn't market him strongly enough) and should be worth more.

B) Toronto/Seattle both have strong need for a Gasol type, but it would be almost literally impossible for either of them to clear the cap space to resign them without losing a huge portion of what makes the team such strong contenders. Almost all of the true contenders either already have a good center or they would have to dismantle their core to get the cap space for Gasol... It's not being mentioned enough, but once we get back to playing with injuries, depth will 100% be the most important factor for every team that wants to contend (Not just because of injuries, but because the sim we're using (basketball-gm) factors depth VERY heavily into the outcome of almost every matchup (if you don't believe me, go spend 250 sim-seasons worth of time at basketball-gm.com like I have and you'll quickly find out how much it factors depth into win-loss results). In other words, any contender that has to move a good deal of depth to acquire the cap space to acquire Gasol will, in most cases, result in a far worse team. I think Minnesota will be a very high choice on the list because of that.

C) I believe we both acknowledged the risk involved here when we accepted, but as long as the Free Agency system/player agency system does it's job realistically here (as opposed to D5, apparently) the chances of re-signing Marc Gasol should be high enough to make the risk-reward factor of the trade worthwhile. Also, if we're acknowledging risk here, why aren't we talking about the fact that I'm offering 3 players, 2 picks, and DRs for one superstar that doesn't even come close to representing a model of good health. After this season, my team will rely 100% Boogie in a far more significant way than Minnesota has up to this point (seriously look at my roster next season, I'm easily the dumbest GM in the league :P). If Boogie goes down with a serious injury, the risk to my team is surely equal, if not worse, to the risk that Minnesota is taking on in not being 100% sure that the most loyal (super)star in the league will re-sign with their team in the offseason. I'm putting all my eggs in one basket to a borderline insane degree, so if risk is the issue here I'd hope my own risk it won't be ignored.

D) Thank you. :)

E) After this trade, he'll have $33,750,774 tied up ($36,475,777 including Green's QO, but for these purposes we don't need to because that cap hold doesn't exist once he actually signs a deal).  Add Gasol's 21M and you're at 54,750,774.  Even if Green commands the full 17.5M max in his first year salary (GSW gave him 14M his first year), that'll only add up to $72,250,774, or $2,250,774 worth of cap space he needs to clear.  All of his contracts are long, even for the players that aren't worth much, so if he can't find a way to easily move that I'll be surprised.  

[Blake Bowman]

I'm going to put in a reject here as well. DeMarcus is on a great deal, long term, and his skill and potential are crazy. I don't feel that he is getting the value he could/should here.

[John Stockton]

contract value is something that needs to be discussed more here. also gasol signing with minnesota doesnt seem likely to me.

$12m for dmc is one of the best contracts for one of the best young player in the league. if min signs both dray and gasol, thatll be over 50% of his salary cap next year.

in the end, his team is in shambles if he doesnt sign gasol. and he still loses the trade even if gasol signs...

[Milt Newton]

Wait, so the trade is rejected? I got a 1-4 vote?

[John Stockton]

its 1-3 right now with BK who accepted and blake, Reggie and kvh rejected. i havent voted yet. so its technically not rejected yet