Paul Pierce
Chicago Bulls
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 12:17:45 GMT -5
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Post by Paul Pierce on Aug 11, 2018 12:17:45 GMT -5
In order of importance to future outlook: Lonzo Ball Evan Fournier (for three years) Jonas Valanciunas (for two years) Donte Norman Powell (probably gets a legitimate shot this year) Quinn Cook George Hill MPJ Bryn Forbes This team is terrible steve, im sorry but it really is that team is much better than some teams in this league. It gives him some young guys with very high upside. I was at a similar spot 2 years ago here where I turned in all my contending pieces for draft picks a fringe prospects. Sometimes you just need to hit the retool button and his team won't be in the worst position we've seen
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 12:28:30 GMT -5
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Post by Steve Jobs on Aug 11, 2018 12:28:30 GMT -5
In order of importance to future outlook: Lonzo Ball Evan Fournier (for three years) Jonas Valanciunas (for two years) Donte Norman Powell (probably gets a legitimate shot this year) Quinn Cook George Hill MPJ Bryn Forbes This team is terrible steve, im sorry but it really is The team is on the verge of a rebuild, with this trade being the first in a long line of moves to accomplish that. Having Lonzo+Donte+MPJ as young prospects with potential, Fournier/Val/Hill as vets with significant trade value, and Powell/Cook/Forbes as guys that can fit into either category as necessary puts him well ahead of most “rebuilding teams” and he’s just getting started. Have some fucking perspective for the context of the conversation or don’t chime in.
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 12:29:49 GMT -5
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Post by Steve Jobs on Aug 11, 2018 12:29:49 GMT -5
LMAO, you’re still the hothead x1,000,000 compared to anything I’ve said here.
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Aug 11, 2018 13:26:37 GMT -5
I’m going to be reinstating the trade committee, tired of this peanut gallery shit.
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Jackie Kong
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Post by Jackie Kong on Aug 11, 2018 13:56:48 GMT -5
GMs saying what they want has nothing to do with having a trade committee if you ask me. The same thing happened when there was one only that a few people got to to vote.
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Paul Pierce
Chicago Bulls
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 14:10:36 GMT -5
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Post by Paul Pierce on Aug 11, 2018 14:10:36 GMT -5
Kinda like the idea of TC. Only liked this way because I got a vote haha
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Jackie Kong
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 14:20:10 GMT -5
Post by Jackie Kong on Aug 11, 2018 14:20:10 GMT -5
Kinda like the idea of TC. Only liked this way because I got a vote haha And you get to vote when you feel like it. When you feel like you have a strong input to add, you vote. When you feel like you don't know enough of the players involved in the trade or you are undecided, you don't vote. Just because there is no TC you are not forced to vote but you can if you want to.
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Paul Pierce
Chicago Bulls
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 14:22:49 GMT -5
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Post by Paul Pierce on Aug 11, 2018 14:22:49 GMT -5
Kinda like the idea of TC. Only liked this way because I got a vote haha And you get to vote when you feel like it. When you feel like you have a strong input to add, you vote. When you feel like you don't know enough of the players involved in the trade or you are undecided, you don't vote. yeah, I see your point. There are some people though who vote on every trade when they do not know the value of certain players. We got a lot of new guys in here and I think a TC will benefit the league. Steve Allan Theodore and pistol were very good when we had the TC
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Jackie Kong
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Post by Jackie Kong on Aug 11, 2018 14:25:36 GMT -5
Then maybe we should require GMs to have at least a couple of months of experience to vote but I am strongly againt limiting that option to only a couple of people.
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 15:55:22 GMT -5
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Aug 11, 2018 15:55:22 GMT -5
I’m going to be reinstating the trade committee, tired of this peanut gallery shit. Pick me, pick me!
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Post by Brown Cobb IV on Aug 11, 2018 15:57:27 GMT -5
I strongly support a tc. This type of voting we have been using just leads to cancerous personal attacks which are ruining the league. If we had more mature gms I'm sure we could have let everyone vote, but sadly it has come to this.
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Paul Pierce
Chicago Bulls
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 16:08:20 GMT -5
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billy likes this
Post by Paul Pierce on Aug 11, 2018 16:08:20 GMT -5
I'd also like to add one last statement. PP4TC 2018!
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Aug 11, 2018 16:11:20 GMT -5
I'd also like to add one last statement. PP4TC 2018! Omg wait can we have an election??? (Probably NOT an actual good idea)
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Paul Pierce
Chicago Bulls
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Post by Paul Pierce on Aug 11, 2018 16:16:05 GMT -5
I'd also like to add one last statement. PP4TC 2018! Omg wait can we have an election??? (Probably NOT an actual good idea) probably not a good idea but I love it lmao. Starting the campaign now
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Jackie Kong
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 16:33:54 GMT -5
Post by Jackie Kong on Aug 11, 2018 16:33:54 GMT -5
This type of voting we have been using just leads to cancerous personal attacks which are ruining the league. I think the type of voting has nothing to do with personal attacks. We just happen to have now passionate and easy to rage personalities that we didn't have back then. People will still post on trade threads even if they don't get to to vote.
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 16:53:46 GMT -5
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Post by Tracy McGrady on Aug 11, 2018 16:53:46 GMT -5
I hope someone can represent the gm's freewill movement also known as GFM.
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Jackie Kong
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Post by Jackie Kong on Aug 11, 2018 16:57:09 GMT -5
I hope someone can represent the gm's freewill movement also known as GFM. Your freewill vote was probably the main reason why Billy is thinking about bringing the TC back. I hate to tell you this but the rate of rejected trades is higher with a TC committee in place. So, you probably should have voted with a good reason instead of that free will argument.
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Post by Tracy McGrady on Aug 11, 2018 17:04:52 GMT -5
I hope someone can represent the gm's freewill movement also known as GFM. Your freewill vote was probably the main reason why Billy is thinking about bringing the TC back. I hate to tell you this but the rate of rejected trades is higher with a TC committee in place. So, you probably should have voted with a good reason instead of that free will argument. But in my opinion, in real life that ttade will still be approved. It is just like the in real life Chicago Bulls trading Jimmy B away. They suck last season but look at their team now. What I mean is, the intention should be checked. If we only look at the current rating and not the end goal, we'll deprive our GMs to achieve their intention.
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Paul Pierce
Chicago Bulls
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Post by Paul Pierce on Aug 11, 2018 17:08:30 GMT -5
Your freewill vote was probably the main reason why Billy is thinking about bringing the TC back. I hate to tell you this but the rate of rejected trades is higher with a TC committee in place. So, you probably should have voted with a good reason instead of that free will argument. But in my opinion, in real life that ttade will still be approved. It is just like the in real life Chicago Bulls trading Jimmy B away. They suck last season but look at their team now. What I mean is, the intention should be checked. If we only look at the current rating and not the end goal, we'll deprive our GMs to achieve their intention. agreed
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 17:22:23 GMT -5
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Post by Penny Hardaway on Aug 11, 2018 17:22:23 GMT -5
I hope someone can represent the gm's freewill movement also known as GFM. I wouldn't mind being in the trade commitee as I understand the importance of free will but also not allowing a team to make a trade that makes no sense. I also bring a different view on players and trades then most gms and im usually around to make a vote.
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Post by Tracy McGrady on Aug 11, 2018 17:27:24 GMT -5
I hope someone can represent the gm's freewill movement also known as GFM. I wouldn't mind being in the trade commitee as I understand the importance of free will but also not allowing a team to make a trade that makes no sense. I also bring a different view on players and trades then most gms and im usually around to make a vote.
You have my blessing brother.
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Jackie Kong
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Post by Jackie Kong on Aug 11, 2018 17:31:17 GMT -5
If we only look at the current rating and not the end goal, we'll deprive our GMs to achieve their intention. If you go back to Magic's trades over the last 3 months you will realize his goal was never to tank. He just traded an expiring contract for 2 expensive years of Gasol. Also, real life Bulls got more in return and had their own pick to tank with. So, Butler is expiring? That doesn't mean much to competiting teams who expect him to re-sign. What's more I will tell you his contract is actually good. Butler will be entitled to the 30% max next off-season but he will have a cap hold of $22,750,000 for the entire period assuming he doesn't pick up his option. That's is a reasonable amount that combined with other contracts could give you enough space to sign other players.
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Post by Steve Jobs on Aug 11, 2018 17:46:11 GMT -5
If we only look at the current rating and not the end goal, we'll deprive our GMs to achieve their intention. If you go back to Magic's trades over the last 3 months you will realize his goal was never to tank. He just traded an expiring contract for 2 expensive years of Gasol. Also, real life Bulls got more in return and had their own pick to tank with. So, Butler is expiring? That doesn't mean much to competiting teams who expect him to re-sign. What's more I will tell you his contract is actually good. Butler will be entitled to the 30% max next off-season but he will have a cap hold of $22,750,000 for the entire period assuming he doesn't pick up his option. That's is a reasonable amount that combined with other contracts could give you enough space to sign other players. It’s not realistic to make that statement based on one trade that Orlando made prior to getting an offer they were interested in for Butler, especially seeing as other trades (Barton for a bunch of young guys) suggest the exact opposite. Past this deal, Orlando still had plenty of firepower to trade for their own pick and tank in earnest, but IMO the best way to rebuild isn’t necessarily by tanking anyway... every time a trade voter acts as if a team not having their own pick makes aiming for a rebuild 100% stupid, it shows a lack of vision from said voter. A deal like grabbing MPJ or chasing other young guys he thinks can break out is often a far more efficient rebuilding move than waiting a whole year just to hope the lottery plays out in his favor. Fournier, Val, and a bunch of his other guys have positive trade value and could allow him to go after viable young breakout candidates on teams that value the current production more than the future production. Regardless, not about this deal anymore.
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Post by Tracy McGrady on Aug 11, 2018 17:54:25 GMT -5
But seriously, I would like to explain where I'm coming from. Let us use the Wolves - Chicago Trade. Wolves trade: Lavine Dunn 1st round pick (pick # 7) who turned out to be Lauri Markkanen Bulls trade: Jimmy Butler 1st Round pick (pick # 16) who turned out to be Justin Patton Without determining yet that Lauri will be a beast, will you accept the trade? Uncertainty factor already plays here. Now let us look at the rationale of each team. Chicago Bulls - Butler was enough to get them into the playoffs, but they couldn’t build a supporting cast capable of boosting them into championship contention. - It was time for a rebuild, one that required good young pieces. That’s what Chicago was aiming for when it traded Butler, and that’s what it got. Timberwolves - Jimmy Butler changed the culture in the locker room, significantly aided in the development of Andrew Wiggins and Karl-Anthony Towns, helped improve the team’s defense and transformed the Wolves from up-and-comers to contenders.
(https://www.twincities.com/2018/02/08/the-timberwolves-won-the-jimmy-butler-trade-and-so-did-the-bulls/)
Aside from the uncertainty, maybe we should also consider the most likely sentiment of the players involved. Let us see: Zach Lavine
- He wants a leadership role and wanted to be the face of the franchise (https://www.givemesport.com/1359809-zach-lavine-wants-to-be-the-face-of-the-bulls-franchise)
Kris Dunn
- "In Minnesota, I was not playing my position"
- "Now I have an opportunity to be an elite PG"
(https://www.nba.com/bulls/features/kris-dunn-i-want-be-elite-point-guard)
Jimmy Butler
- He wants out of Minnesota but you won't know that during the time this trade happened (uncertainty again)
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Now, I wonder after a season, who really won this trade? I think it is a win - win for both but if you'll just check the face value, it looks like a one sided trade.
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In my opinion, given this scenario, it is very hard to determine if the trade will be good or bad. So it won't hurt if we'll give the GM a chance to fight for his end goal.
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Jackie Kong
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 18:10:46 GMT -5
Post by Jackie Kong on Aug 11, 2018 18:10:46 GMT -5
every time a trade voter acts as if a team not having their own pick makes aiming for a rebuild 100% stupid I never said it is wrong to tank without a pick but it is doesn't help. This trade is wrong for so many reasons that we are always discussing something different. - Magic changed their direction completely from one trade to another. - Magic trade their best player without even putting him on the block. - Magic make a tanking move but even then, they are taking possibly the worst contract in the trade. With this trade, magic would have $44,520,000 committed next season to Hill, Wade and Gasol.
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Steve Jobs
Oklahoma City Thunder
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Aug 11, 2018 18:34:39 GMT -5
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Post by Steve Jobs on Aug 11, 2018 18:34:39 GMT -5
every time a trade voter acts as if a team not having their own pick makes aiming for a rebuild 100% stupid I never said it is wrong to tank without a pick but it is doesn't help. This trade is wrong for so many reasons that we are always discussing something different. - Magic changed their direction completely from one trade to another. - Magic trade their best player without even putting him on the block. - Magic make a tanking move but even then, they are taking possibly the worst contract in the trade. With this trade, magic would have $44,520,000 committed next season to Hill, Wade and Gasol. 1) “changing your direction” is only a sign of bad GMing if you’re incompetently going about it on either/both sides. I’ve changed my team’s direction literally every single season, and while my team has never improved enough to win a championship, I feel like any/all of my 100% franchise altering plans have only ever worked out for the better. 2) You’ve said this several times... Magic’s “everyone is available...” block is the EXACT reason I reached out about Butler, and having multiple other offers negotiating at the exact same time (both as a bench mark for what value was available to Stuff and as proof I wasn’t the only GM inquiring) shows that you’re majorly over-reacting about that particular point. 3) Again, rebuilding =/= tanking. That was my exact point. You can rebuild actively without caring if you’re tanking... the fact that the Magic DON’T have their pick makes having some decent players around to keep wins reasonable a smart GM move. - Not explicitly stated in your response, but I’ll counter it anyway - Hill is overpaid at his 17-18 production, but underpaid if he can even give a team 50ish games at 16-17 levels. Last season he was on: - Sacramento (asking him to play off ball to Fox, and clearly not wanting him to shoot a lot OR to contribute to wins) - Cleveland (with an extremely ball-dominant LeBron James and, again, clearly not asking him to be a primary ball-handler or shoot any kind of volume). Cleveland without LeBron will badly need him to return to his 16-17 role and score/distribute with plenty of volume, so it’s a bit absurd to me to act as if he’s completely washed after a year where role clearly dictated the diminished production at every stop and his shooting percentages reflected a guy who still has plenty in the tank.
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Jackie Kong
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 18:46:18 GMT -5
Post by Jackie Kong on Aug 11, 2018 18:46:18 GMT -5
“everyone is available...” is very different from “Everyone could be moved if the price is right” and Butler isn't included in here: dynasty720.proboards.com/thread/5141/stuffs-magic-trade-blockTo me saying everyone could be moved if the price is right is not saying much at all. I read about 2 other GMs who said that they negotiated for Butler and 2 more who said that he didn't know was available and would have offered more. Changing direction is not bad if you keep improving your team like I think you do. Can't say the same thing about Stuff. About Hill, his contract might or might not be that bad but I think it is pretty big for Magic to take if they decided to tank.
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 20:58:16 GMT -5
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Post by Stuff The Magic Dragon on Aug 11, 2018 20:58:16 GMT -5
If we only look at the current rating and not the end goal, we'll deprive our GMs to achieve their intention. If you go back to Magic's trades over the last 3 months you will realize his goal was never to tank. He just traded an expiring contract for 2 expensive years of Gasol. Also, real life Bulls got more in return and had their own pick to tank with. So, Butler is expiring? That doesn't mean much to competiting teams who expect him to re-sign. What's more I will tell you his contract is actually good. Butler will be entitled to the 30% max next off-season but he will have a cap hold of $22,750,000 for the entire period assuming he doesn't pick up his option. That's is a reasonable amount that combined with other contracts could give you enough space to sign other players. 🙄
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White Mamba
Milwaukee Bucks
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Post by White Mamba on Aug 11, 2018 21:29:40 GMT -5
Please god reinstate the TC. Its awful having to go through these cancerous threads
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OKC-ORL
Aug 11, 2018 21:40:03 GMT -5
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Post by Stuff The Magic Dragon on Aug 11, 2018 21:40:03 GMT -5
wouldn't mind having a TC if the committee consist of at least 40% of the community/number of teams
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