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Post by Steve Kerr on Sept 13, 2020 8:41:40 GMT -5
OK - thanks.
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Post by DJ Jazzy Jeff on Oct 7, 2020 12:37:40 GMT -5
If Marc Gasol signs with Barcelona irl, what would happen to his D720 contract?
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Oct 7, 2020 12:52:19 GMT -5
If Marc Gasol signs with Barcelona irl, what would happen to his D720 contract? he has announced his retirement from the NBA, so his contract would come off your books. Compare to Mirotic for instance, who didnt announce a retirement but just signed overseas and is still on Washington's books. In fact, it doesn't even matter if he signs overseas. He "announced" his retirement. That's all our rule goes by. Otherwise it's a mess every year trying to decide who counts as retired or not.
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Jackie Kong
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Post by Jackie Kong on Oct 7, 2020 13:17:36 GMT -5
In fact, it doesn't even matter if he signs overseas. He "announced" his retirement. That's all our rule goes by. Otherwise it's a mess every year trying to decide who counts as retired or not. I thought the rule was to retire those who retire from Basketball. I mean, even if Gasol said he is retiring from the NBA (which I don't think he is explicitly did) he still wouldn't be able to retire from the NBA and sign oversees if he had 1 year left of contract like he does here.
Edit: Unless the cba says that's valid. let me check that out. Maybe, Allan Houston knows the procedure then. To retire from the NBA with an ongoing contract to sign elsewhere.
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Oct 7, 2020 13:23:11 GMT -5
In fact, it doesn't even matter if he signs overseas. He "announced" his retirement. That's all our rule goes by. Otherwise it's a mess every year trying to decide who counts as retired or not. I thought the rule was to retire those who retire from Basketball. I mean, even if Gasol said he is retiring from the NBA (which I don't think he is explicitly did) he still wouldn't be able to retire from the NBA and sign oversees if he had 1 year left of contract like he does here. Edit: Unless the cba says that's valid. let me check that out. Maybe, Allan Houston knows the procedure then. To retire from the NBA with an ongoing contract to sign elsewhere. I've actually scoured the rule page do we even have the retirement rule in writing anywhere that you know of?
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Jackie Kong
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Post by Jackie Kong on Oct 7, 2020 13:34:06 GMT -5
I've actually scoured the rule page do we even have the retirement rule in writing anywhere that you know of? No. Couldn't find it. Also, sorry if I sound like I am complaining. Just want to debate it a bit as it seems an odd case if he declares he is retiring from the NBA but not from Basketball. I mean, I think he would wait an extra year to sign oversees if he had a 1 year $36,382,500 left in his contract rather than him being a FA but that's just an opinion. For the most part, I just wonder how they would handle such case in real life with someone retiring from an ongoing contract.
Edit: I think that if a player retires from an ongoing contract he needs to wait for as long as the contract would have lasted for him to sign elsewhere? Allan HoustonCollison for example announced retirement recently and he considered for a moment coming back but he was a FA when he retired.
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Oct 7, 2020 13:46:28 GMT -5
I've actually scoured the rule page do we even have the retirement rule in writing anywhere that you know of? No. Couldn't find it. Also, sorry if I sound like I am complaining. Just want to debate it a bit as it seems an odd case if he declares he is retiring from the NBA but not from Basketball. I mean, I think he would wait an extra year to sign oversees if he had a 1 year $36,382,500 left in his contract rather than him being a FA but that's just an opinion. For the most part, I just wonder how they would handle such case in real life with someone retiring from an ongoing contract. Sigh. Time to write the rule. I don't think what a players contract here matters at all. That's not how we ever interpret our rules, so I don't want to start doing it at all. To me, I've always thought of the rule as "retiring from the NBA". Maybe players make off-hand comments about "retiring from basketball" or whatever, and obviously this is a really weird edge case. But, in my mind, when someone retires it's always from the league. If they turn up on a professional team overseas afterward, then whatever. I really don't care either way we write it, but I'd hate to have the rule be something like "The player has to say they retire from ALL professional basketball" because then them saying "I retire from the NBA" wouldn't be enough, and I feel like thats the statement you generally see.
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Jackie Kong
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Post by Jackie Kong on Oct 7, 2020 13:59:05 GMT -5
Added an edited part to my previous post while you were replying back. So, I don't disagree with what you say but for the most part, I wonder how they would do it in real life with him having 1 year left of contract. I think it is what I said about him not being able to play elsewhere while his retired contract is still running but I could only find a reddit post to back me up. Doubt that counts.
About Gasol, do we know he is specifically said he is retiring. Feel like there might be confusion because Pau Gasol did retire some months ago. lololol.
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Allan Houston
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Post by Allan Houston on Oct 7, 2020 14:26:21 GMT -5
In real life, there's not really a retirement exclusion. Basically, players retire at the end of their contracts. And that's informal; they can come back if they want and can secure a contract. But since contracts here don't necessarily line up with irl contracts, we have the rule here. There are two exceptions, though, where a retired NBA player's contract comes off the books:
1) A career-ending injury or illness. 2) A "Voluntary Retirement." This is where a player wants out of his contract and the team won't let him. This only happens because the player wants to sign with a different team, i.e. they're don't actually want to retire. A voluntary retired player forgoes his salary, which comes off the books for the team, and then must wait a year before signing a new contract.
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billy
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Post by billy on Oct 7, 2020 14:55:52 GMT -5
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Post by Justin Timberlake on Oct 8, 2020 11:27:43 GMT -5
Quick question about cap holds. I don't think I've been in this situation before.
I'd like to maximize my space before Murray gets a more expensive deal. His cap hold is just his QO right?
Also, since we typically do RFA before FA, will I take the hit before FA once he signs his contract or is his small cap hold extended out until FA is over?
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Steve Jobs
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Post by Steve Jobs on Oct 8, 2020 11:39:12 GMT -5
Quick question about cap holds. I don't think I've been in this situation before. I'd like to maximize my space before Murray gets a more expensive deal. His cap hold is just his QO right? Also, since we typically do RFA before FA, will I take the hit before FA once he signs his contract or is his small cap hold extended out until FA is over? Any Bird Rights signing counts only as the cap hold until the end of the offseason to preserve as much cap space as possible, including RFAs.
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Shaq O'Neal
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Post by Shaq O'Neal on Oct 8, 2020 11:43:09 GMT -5
Quick question about cap holds. I don't think I've been in this situation before. I'd like to maximize my space before Murray gets a more expensive deal. His cap hold is just his QO right? Also, since we typically do RFA before FA, will I take the hit before FA once he signs his contract or is his small cap hold extended out until FA is over? Any Bird Rights signing counts only as the cap hold until the end of the offseason to preserve as much cap space as possible, including RFAs. Not that it concerns me now but is that still true when a RFA signs an offer sheet elsewhere and you match it?
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Steve Jobs
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Post by Steve Jobs on Oct 8, 2020 12:26:33 GMT -5
Any Bird Rights signing counts only as the cap hold until the end of the offseason to preserve as much cap space as possible, including RFAs. Not that it concerns me now but is that still true when a RFA signs an offer sheet elsewhere and you match it? Yup! The offer sheet still just becomes a contract (as if you’d offered it, rather than they had signed with another team and been matched) and the cap hold carries through. The only time an RFA wouldn’t cross over as a cap hold through the offseason is if you extend them the offseason before they expire (like Brown/Murray).
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Jackie Kong
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Post by Jackie Kong on Oct 8, 2020 12:29:15 GMT -5
Not that it concerns me now but is that still true when a RFA signs an offer sheet elsewhere and you match it? Yup! The offer sheet is still just becomes a contract as if you’d offered it rather than they had signed with another team and been matched. I trust your word but tagging Allan Houston just in case, ha. For some reason, I though like Shaq that matched offer sheets were added to the total salaries right away.
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Allan Houston
New York Knicks
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Post by Allan Houston on Oct 8, 2020 12:37:15 GMT -5
Yup! The offer sheet is still just becomes a contract as if you’d offered it rather than they had signed with another team and been matched. I trust your word but tagging Allan Houston just in case, ha. For some reason, I though like Shaq that matched offer sheets were added to the total salaries right away. Yea, Kong is right. There are three scenarios. 1) The RFA signs the QO. Then there's no bookkeeping difference between the cap hold and the contract. 2) The RFA re-signs with his team. Then the QO stays on as a hold until the end of the off-season. 3) The RFA signs an offer sheet elsewhere. Then the QO comes off the books for the former team, and the offer sheet contract hits the books on the other team. Once the former team matches, the new contract moves over to their books. So the third scenario has two interesting consequences. 1) For a brief window, the former team has a bit of extra space to work with. It'd be hard to use, but if you can pull it off could have cool effects. 2) The former team is incentivized to offer a contract better than potential offer sheets to maintain the QO cap hold. And yes, I realize I should go through the rules and fix up things like this. Just haven't got around to it yet
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Jackie Kong
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Post by Jackie Kong on Oct 8, 2020 12:43:27 GMT -5
So the third scenario has two interesting consequences. 1) For a brief window, the former team has a bit of extra space to work with. Oh, I didn't know that.
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Shaq O'Neal
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Post by Shaq O'Neal on Oct 8, 2020 12:48:09 GMT -5
Isn't that window 48 hours since you have to match the contract signed with another team in 48 hours?
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Steve Jobs
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Post by Steve Jobs on Oct 8, 2020 12:48:27 GMT -5
Wait, what?
That makes no sense. Why would the player signing an offer sheet and getting matched put the contract on the books right away? The potential for abuse from that is astronomical... since the player could “choose” to sign with another team despite identical contract offers, it essentially puts an RFA team’s cap space in the Player Agent voters hands.
Like, I get the premise and it absolutely should work like that IRL, but I don’t understand why we’d run it that way with the free agency system that we have in place. RFAs can be traded basically anywhere at anytime, but taking an offer sheet over the incumbent team’s contract offer immediately replaces the cap hold with the full contract value?
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Shaq O'Neal
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Post by Shaq O'Neal on Oct 8, 2020 12:56:02 GMT -5
Wait, what? That makes no sense. Why would the player signing an offer sheet and getting matched put the contract on the books right away? The potential for abuse from that is astronomical... since the player could “choose” to sign with another team despite identical contract offers, it essentially puts an RFA team’s cap space in the Player Agent voters hands. Like, I get the premise and it absolutely should work like that IRL, but I don’t understand why we’d run it that way with the free agency system that we have in place. RFAs can be traded basically anywhere at anytime, but taking an offer sheet over the incumbent team’s contract offer immediately replaces the cap hold with the full contract value? I feel like if they are identical offers then the RFA will always re sign with them in any scenario.This also gives incentive to give a contract offer to your own RFA because otherwise you could just match the best offer given to him since that would mean you eliminate all chances of overpaying the player.Contract structure might not be what you want but in most cases this strategy would work
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Steve Jobs
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Post by Steve Jobs on Oct 8, 2020 12:57:08 GMT -5
BTW. Doesn’t that also have potential to be (additionally)weaponized by pushing a team into the luxury tax early in the offseason so they can only utilize a Taxpayer’s MLE instead of the full MLE?
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Steve Jobs
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Post by Steve Jobs on Oct 8, 2020 13:00:02 GMT -5
Wait, what? That makes no sense. Why would the player signing an offer sheet and getting matched put the contract on the books right away? The potential for abuse from that is astronomical... since the player could “choose” to sign with another team despite identical contract offers, it essentially puts an RFA team’s cap space in the Player Agent voters hands. Like, I get the premise and it absolutely should work like that IRL, but I don’t understand why we’d run it that way with the free agency system that we have in place. RFAs can be traded basically anywhere at anytime, but taking an offer sheet over the incumbent team’s contract offer immediately replaces the cap hold with the full contract value? I feel like if they are identical offers then the RFA will always re sign with them in any scenario.This also gives incentive to give a contract offer to your own RFA because otherwise you could just match the best offer given to him since that would mean you eliminate all chances of overpaying the player.Contract structure might not be what you want but in most cases this strategy would work It’s be nice if that were true, but I’m pretty confident players have signed Max offer sheets from other teams with max contract offers on the table from their original team... due to GM issues, team fit, etc. Those things are out of the hands of the GM with the RFA and apparently can be leveraged against them to heavily hurt their offseason. haha. I genuinely didn’t know this was a thing until right now.
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Jackie Kong
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Post by Jackie Kong on Oct 8, 2020 13:00:55 GMT -5
BTW. Doesn’t that also have potential to be (additionally)weaponized by pushing a team into the luxury tax early in the offseason so they can only utilize a Taxpayer’s MLE instead of the full MLE? You don't get a taxpayer MLE if you are currently over the luxury. I mean, maybe you do but taxpayer MLE has to do with what happened the previous Season. So, if you have a tax penalty from previous Season you get the taxpayer MLE.
Edit: No, wait. It seems like I am wrong, LOL.
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Steve Jobs
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Post by Steve Jobs on Oct 8, 2020 13:03:38 GMT -5
Deleted mine since we quoted the same thing and yours was much cleaner looking. haha
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Shaq O'Neal
LA Clippers
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Post by Shaq O'Neal on Oct 8, 2020 13:03:49 GMT -5
I feel like if they are identical offers then the RFA will always re sign with them in any scenario.This also gives incentive to give a contract offer to your own RFA because otherwise you could just match the best offer given to him since that would mean you eliminate all chances of overpaying the player.Contract structure might not be what you want but in most cases this strategy would work It’s be nice if that were true, but I’m pretty confident players have signed Max offer sheets from other teams with max contract offers on the table from their original team... due to GM issues, team fit, etc. Those things are out of the hands of the GM with the RFA and apparently can be leveraged against them to heavily hurt their offseason. haha. I genuinely didn’t know this was a thing until right now. I mean even if there are GM and fit issues I feel like the RFA should still sign with their original team because if the team has offered the same contract,they would definitely match it right?Unless some team has a big change of heart in 48 hours lol.Feels like if the player does not sign with their team it is just a big Fuck You to the GM lol. Since i have never been a PA or an active part of the FA process as a GM too,I could be missing something though
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Allan Houston
New York Knicks
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Post by Allan Houston on Oct 8, 2020 13:30:31 GMT -5
Wait, what? That makes no sense. Why would the player signing an offer sheet and getting matched put the contract on the books right away? The potential for abuse from that is astronomical... since the player could “choose” to sign with another team despite identical contract offers, it essentially puts an RFA team’s cap space in the Player Agent voters hands. Like, I get the premise and it absolutely should work like that IRL, but I don’t understand why we’d run it that way with the free agency system that we have in place. RFAs can be traded basically anywhere at anytime, but taking an offer sheet over the incumbent team’s contract offer immediately replaces the cap hold with the full contract value? Other people have said this, but jsut to reiterate: Have some faith in the PA committee. If an RFA sees two identical contract offers, staying with the same team is a big factor in breaking the tie. Of course, there are rare circumstances where, for example, we know the player wants to live in a certain market or he would be upset by past actions. But those considerations are further mitigated in RFA because the player knows they'll just get matched anyway. As for the concern about it bumping you from MLE to taxpayer MLE, I don't know, I see that as a feature, not a bug. In fact, cap holds work the way they do because generating, essentially, extra cap space is considered a bug, and this is the most administrable way around it. Now, here's a more reasonable concern to me: in RFA we don't do negotiation. Therefore, you can't actually match offer sheets except in the case of easily inferred max offers. But again, I see that as a feature. Make sure you pay your guy if you want to take advantage of the hold.
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billy
Miami Heat
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Post by billy on Oct 8, 2020 13:38:49 GMT -5
And yes, I realize I should go through the rules and fix up things like this. Just haven't got around to it yet Updated the RFA and Cap Holds rule page to reflect these intricacies.
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